21 Oct 2017 06:21:07
I think the White Sox could kill 2 birds with one stone for 2018: Take on a bad contract for prospects but also fulfill the need for a short-term veteran bat. The Chi Sox have less than $40 million committed post-arb for 2018. Here are some options:

Giants get:
Tyler Danish RHP

White Sox get:
Hunter Pence OF (1 year, $18 Million)
Heliot Ramos OF (#4)
Kyle Crick RHP (#17)
$2 Million

If the Giants are really interested in taking on Giancarlo's contract, it would really help to shed 16 million off of the 2018 payroll and open up RF.

Braves Get:
Charlie Tilson OF (#19)

White Sox Get:
Matt Kemp OF/DH (2 years, 38 Million)
Joey Wentz LHP (#8)/(#94)
Bryse Wilson RHP (#19)

Getting 38 million total off the payroll would really help Atlanta, especially in the 2019 market. However, unloading 38 million is going to cost them a pretty good prospect in Wentz. Atlanta definitely has a surplus of pitching prospects. This also frees up space for phenom Ronald Acuña.

Braves get:
Charlie Tilson OF (#19)

White Sox get:
Nick Markakis OF (1 year, 11 million)
Kyle Muller LHP (#12)
Bryse Wilson RHP (#19)

If I'm the Sox, Matt Kemp could end up really, really bad - prospect gaining or not. So they could go to the same club and get Markakis that puts a needed LH bat in the lineup and only a 1-year commitment. Another contract the Braves would love to shed. They downgrade the return to Kyle Muller.

1.) 21 Oct 2017
21 Oct 2017 07:23:03
I don't think the Giants can trade Ramos yet. But without him, it's probably not bad.

2.) 21 Oct 2017
21 Oct 2017 15:21:27
These are terrible. And counter to what has been going on with the White Sox.

3.) 21 Oct 2017
21 Oct 2017 16:35:25
How is acquiring prospects counter to what they've been doing?

4.) 22 Oct 2017
22 Oct 2017 03:30:01
Oh, my bad. I forgot that Matt Kemp, Nick Markakis and Hunter Pence are all prospects, each with over a decade of MLB experience.

5.) 22 Oct 2017
22 Oct 2017 04:42:07
They are going to sign a veteran OF anyway. Might as well pay more for one while you have a sub $40MM payroll and acquire prospects in the same process. Hence the "2 Birds, one stone" reference. Maybe you've never heard that one before?

6.) 22 Oct 2017
22 Oct 2017 06:11:03
hahaha tyler danish for that group from san fran?

get real bro. giants ain't giving up a first round draft pick for that.

7.) 22 Oct 2017
22 Oct 2017 06:25:17
The problem is, who is going to give up significant prospects just to shed salary? Pence’s contract isn’t that upside down that they have to give up their 1st Round pick to get rid of it. There’s only $18MM left on it. If he has a decent 2018, they can trade him midway (or keep him if they contend), or just dump him with half remaining on the deal.

The suggestion that Ramos has to go with is pretty silly, and quite frankly, never going to happen.

8.) 22 Oct 2017
22 Oct 2017 14:57:03
Valid about Ramos, but we have seen teams trade top prospects to shed salary. See Bronson Arroyo and Liriano trades.

9.) 22 Oct 2017
22 Oct 2017 18:05:58
Dave Stewart was the same guy who traded Dansby Swanson and Ender Inciarte for Shelby Miller.

I wouldn't use him as a litmus for anything.

10.) 22 Oct 2017
22 Oct 2017 18:59:31
Inciarte is the biggest loss for them in that trade. I'm personally not sold on Dansby. Looking at 2015 Numbers with ATL, doesn't really seem like there was any glaring stat they missed to explain why Miller wouldn't succeed in AZ. He had a pretty good GB% to pitch on the West coast not being a huge strikeout pitcher. I don't know if anyone saw that big of a downfall coming. Either way, it did seems like an impulse trade and it's at least one reason why he no longer has the job.

Maybe they didn't pay enough attention to 2014, where he was a product of excellent defense ("poor" FIP) with STL.

11.) 22 Oct 2017
22 Oct 2017 19:06:11
Welcome to the show, ilikebaseball.

If getting rid of Pence's salary was the only way ownership could take on Stanton's money and most likely improve other aspects of the team in free agency, then do the Giants give one of their "top" prospects in their bone dry system to do so?

The value the Giants receive isn't what Danish provides you. He's merely a guy that would make spot starts between AAA and the big leagues. The value is getting rid of Pence's $$$.

12.) 22 Oct 2017
22 Oct 2017 19:53:27
Getting rid of prospects in a bone dry farm system makes absolutely no sense.

Pence’s contract isn’t like Pujols or Miguel Cabrera’s. There’s 1 year left on it.

They won’t, under any circumstances, give up Ramos to clear Pence’s contract. It’s really not that important to clear his $18MM. Besides, who’s to say they take Stanton with no dollars attached? If the Marlins pitch in for Stanton’s 2018, or they take Span to help balance it out, it’s even.

13.) 22 Oct 2017
22 Oct 2017 19:54:23
Moral of the story: Giants won’t do it. It’s not their M. O.

Quit trying to defend it.

14.) 22 Oct 2017
22 Oct 2017 20:29:43
They don't trade their leadoff hitter, Span, who had a nice offensive season in 2017. They can keep him for $9MM less than Pence in 2018. They ideally get Stanton to play RF and move Span to left. They want to improve OF defense at least.

Also, Jeter and co. have said will try to include/ take on the least amount of money possible when trading Giancarlo, even if it means a minimal return of players. Their #1 focus is cutting payroll (Jeter said ideally to be around $90MM for 2018). Right now, post-arb and no additions, they are right around $125MM. So there will be some serious efforts to not only trade Stanton, but guys like Prado, Tazawa, Ziegler, etc.

It's much more likely that Pence gets moved to a team like the Sox to shed the salary than going back to Miami.

My comment about the bone dry system was that if the Giants want to contend in the next couple of years, they're going to have to spend some $. They can't fall back on their farm system to fill starting positions on the ML club, at least anytime soon. If they ever decide to tear it down, they'll have plenty of attractive players that could turn their whole system around completely. It doesn't mean they would be open to trading Ramos.

15.) 23 Oct 2017
22 Oct 2017 22:36:39
Or, they can spend money and keep their farm in tact. It’s a luxury rich teams have.

If it was possible to have negative percent, that’d be the chance the Giants ever consider a ludicrous deal like this. They aren’t giving away top prospects just so they can clear salary. It literally won’t even be a thought in their minds.

16.) 23 Oct 2017
23 Oct 2017 02:41:23
If they want to get Stanton, trust me it's not even a normal superstar signing. They're going to want to clear some space. Plus Pence won't even be a starter if they get Giancarlo.

17.) 23 Oct 2017
23 Oct 2017 05:46:08
"Trust me" says the guy who clearly has never seen how the Giants do business.

They very well may want to move Pence's contract, and probably could if they tried. But what they won't do is move his contract and attach a top prospect with it. They've never done a trade like that while Sabean/ Evans have been in charge.

And again, the Pence signing isn't hurting them. They have money coming off the books after 2018 (Pence, Span option, Moore option, potential trades), and ownership has explicitly said they'll spend whatever they need to in order to be competitive. They are an estimated $88MM under the tax threshold for 2019 (that's obviously before arbitration costs, but that won't be more than $20-30MM) .

Without removing Pence's contract, they sit at a projected $212MM. That's $15MM over the luxury tax threshold, and a three time payor with a 50% rate on every dollar over the threshold. That's about $7.9MM, which is the cost of a bench player. Trust me, Larry Baer will gladly pay the price and keep Hunter Pence.

So, if the choice is to pay $8MM and keep Pence, or get rid of Pence, but also lose Ramos, they'll just pay the money. It's what the Giants do.

Stop defending your idea. It has absolutely no basis in reality and really makes little sense for a luxurious team like the Giants.

18.) 23 Oct 2017
23 Oct 2017 15:34:05
Hey if they want to add Giancarlo and pay him $25MM/ yr and pay his backup $18MM/ yr, they can go right ahead and get taxed out of the Wazoo. Seems strange coming off a 95 loss season, but ok, I guess.

19.) 23 Oct 2017
23 Oct 2017 22:47:39
"Taxed out of the wazoo". It's around $9MM of penalty to add Giancarlo Stanton and keep Hunter Pence. That's not completely absurd.

Also, there's nothing saying they can't move Hunter Pence. They will very likely pursue the opportunity. But if it means they have to give up Heliot Ramos and Kyle Crick to do so, they'd just keep him.

And if they keep Pence, they will move him to LF, or use Stanton in LF. That seems to be the understanding. Most of the Giants beat guys believe Span is the odd man out (and very likely to be traded this winter) . Which, if they move Span, that puts them at a luxury tax penalty of $2.5MM for Stanton's 2018 salary.

20.) 23 Oct 2017
23 Oct 2017 23:09:57
Now, all of this relies on the Giants actually trading for Stanton. In my personal opinion (which is one that understands how the Giants have operated recently), I don't see it as much more than some beat writers wanting to generate steam.

The Giants are more likely to focus on defense in the OF, and guys on better contracts. Think guys like Billy Hamilton, Michael Taylor, Randal Grichuk. And likely spend at another OF position through FA (Upton, Cain, Gomez) or spend at 3B (Moustakas or Frazier) .

They could try and make a bigger splash by going after cheaper, but very good OF such as Ozuna, Yelich, or rentals such as McCutchen, Gardner, etc.

I personally don't see Stanton as a guy the Giants want to pay through 2027. And even if they do, they don't have to give up Heliot Ramos just to pull it off.

21.) 24 Oct 2017
24 Oct 2017 02:44:07
The way I look at it, Span is cheaper and better. I personally believe that Stanton goes there bc you're right, they'll spend a lot to contend and maybe only 5 or 6 other teams are even able to take the money on. If they are really "willing to spend anything to contend" like you said, then you have to jump on the opportunity to get a guy like Stanton when you don't have to give up any prospects. Getting Stanton would change the whole dynamic of that team. A guy like that behind Posey would do wonders for him. They don't have the prospects trade for one of those rentals, or especially not for Yelich or Ozuna.

What I don't understand is you kept talking to me about the Giants not needing to save money because they are "luxurious", but now you're telling me they need to look at better contracts. They can get Stanton (who actually is one of the best defensive RFers), move Span to left, and then sign or trade for the best defensive CF they can find. The OF defense becomes significantly better. If you keep Span, then you also don't have to find a good defensive CFer that also gets on base enough to lead off.

22.) 24 Oct 2017
24 Oct 2017 11:12:52
Just joined the site ilikebaseball? Really generic name, no other posts/ comments? Seems a little. suspicious? Hahaha.

23.) 24 Oct 2017
24 Oct 2017 22:43:36
If you don't understand how those two statements are different, maybe you need to stop engaging in logical discourse.

It's simple really: the Giants WANT to find cheaper contracts, but if they have to take on bigger contracts, they CAN. But they'd obviously prefer to get guys with more team control (again, think Hamilton, Taylor, Grichuk) . Paying a guy $25M+ thru 2027 probably is not their preferred move.

24.) 25 Oct 2017
25 Oct 2017 00:35:15
But then if we want to talk about putting the team in the best position to win, Stanton is much better than all 3 of those players. So if money doesn't matter to them in their quest to win, it should be an easy choice.

25.) 25 Oct 2017
25 Oct 2017 04:50:24
The other thing that hasn't been mentioned: there's almost a zero percent chance Hunter Pence accepts a trade out of San Francisco. He's got a no-trade clause. And every indication is he loves San Francisco and probably doesn't want to move to a team in the middle of a rebuild.

If anyone in the OF moves, it's going to be Span. He has no stipulations and that contract isn't terrible. Clearing $11MM would be a step in the right direction.

26.) 25 Oct 2017
25 Oct 2017 05:23:24
"Hey Hunter, Yeah look we just got Giancarlo so you're just going to pinch hit this year for us, maybe hit a little against lefties"

"ORRR, you could accept this trade to the White Sox, start in left, and if you have a pulse in the first half of the season, Hahn pay you all your $$$ and will undoubtedly move you to a playoff team"

Keep in mind, even with the addition of Stanton, are the Giants a playoff team in 2018 in that division? I doubt it.

27.) 25 Oct 2017
25 Oct 2017 06:26:51
Here you go again, talking in theory, and ignoring the reality.

If there's a player on the Giants roster who has embraced the lifestyle and personality of the Bay Area: it's Hunter Pence. He has no incentive to want to move, and because of his contract, he doesn't have to. I find him to be in a similar situation Joey Votto is in. Huge contract. Team would be better off without that contract, but the player loves the community and doesn't want to move. The reasons you've stated likely don't interest Pence, who makes $18MM and lives in a city he loves, playing for a crowd he loves. I just don't see it happening.

And look, there's nothing wrong with trading Pence. I could care less if they do. If they can clear his $18M, it's always a plus. But again, I don't see him waiving that no trade clause, especially to a team like the White Sox. He's probably got a very small list of teams he'd accept a trade to, if any at all.

But just so we're clear: in the rarest of rare chances Pence is dealt, it WILL NOT, under any circumstances, include one of their top prospects. They'd just hold on and pay the penalty for a year if such were the case. It doesn't make sense for a team with no farm depth to cut from the top without getting significant value in return. $18MM is not significant value for teams like the Giants.

28.) 25 Oct 2017
25 Oct 2017 06:48:45
Bobby Evans: "Hey Hunter, you know how much you love San Francisco? And you know how beautiful it is here, and how much you love the progressive, diverse culture and the spirit of innovation that takes place here? And you know how your personality fits this place to a tee? "

Hunter Pence: "Bobby, I love this place. I'm never leaving. "

Bobby: "Welllllll, some of us were thinking, what if we told you there was a really cool place in Southside Chicago for you to play? I mean, it's not the nicest of places, and it's kind of ran down. The stadium isn't that great, and their team is over-shadowed by the team up north. The crime rate is kind of high there. There's not even a ton of cool innovation, just a bunch of white CEOs moving their companies there. We thought it'd be a good fit. "

Hunter: "Please don't ever talk to me again. "

That's how that conversation goes down. Guaranteed.

29.) 25 Oct 2017
25 Oct 2017 08:22:31
nah bro just joined this through site found it through google

you seem bothered that anyone would ever challenge what u have to say

im just here reading comments

posting a bunch doesn't mean u smart.

30.) 25 Oct 2017
25 Oct 2017 18:58:37
"and how much you love the progressive, diverse culture and the spirit of innovation that takes place here? "

HAHAHA. If Pence is THIS soft, yeah he can stay in San Fran. We prefer guys that like to play and win baseball games over here. Chicago is ran down? let's do everyone a favor and recognize that San Franciso does not compare even slightly to Chicago. One of the top sports cities in the world, if not #1.

And yes, all the players live right in the heart of the projects. Find me any MLB player that left or refused to come to Chicago because they felt it was unsafe.

"just a bunch of white CEOs moving their companies there. "
Dude what in the world are talking about? hahaha.

31.) 25 Oct 2017
25 Oct 2017 19:44:42
"let's do everyone a favor and recognize that San Franciso does not compare even slightly to Chicago. One of the top sports cities in the world, if not #1."

You make it so easy. At this point, I think I'm coming close to cyber-bullying, and I'm going to stop. You don't even recognize when someone is blatantly trolling you, and your takes get more and more ridiculous as you fail to see it.

Have fun with life. It must be convenient when you're always right about everything.