18 Oct 2021 14:34:27
Now that both the Giants and White Sox seasons are done, let's do a recap as to where we're at.
After 3 seasons (when Zaidi started and when, supposedly, we're limited to counting Rick Hahn's success), here's where the teams stand:
White Sox: 200-183, 2 playoff wins, 1 division title.
Giants: 213-171, 2 playoff wins, 1 division title.
This, mind you, is a Giants team that had the 106-win Dodgers in their division, and a White Sox team that had legitimately zero other .500 teams in their division.
And to remind you of your own assessment: the Giants were 3-5 years away, and the White Sox were on par with the Los Angeles Dodgers.
To be honest, Chi Sox, you might be better off deleting this site from your browsing history. It's hilarious how frequently you've proven yourself wrong over the past 18 months or so.
Maybe go learn how microwaves are made, because baseball hot takes aren't your thing.
19 Oct 2021 14:43:30
Finally, Chi Sox, there are seriously excellent odds that Farhan Zaidi will be the Executive of the Year, along with Kapler being NL Manager of the Year.
And just so you're clear: they did next to nothing to emulate Rick Hahn or try and match what he did. NOTHING.
And thank goodness he didn't. Otherwise, he would have dropped 8M on Adam Eaton and spinelessly let his owner hire a manager for him.
Maybe Rick Hahn can emulate Farhan Zaidi. After all, his core is only going to get older and he has legitimately baseball's worst farm system. He might need a few pointers. If he's lucky, maybe his team will even win 100+ games in a season for the first time in over 100 years.
20 Oct 2021 00:06:38
I can admit that I didn't see the Giants winning 107 games with career resurgences from Posey, Longoria and Crawford. Give cresit where credit is due. But then again, you didn't see this coming. We both projected them as third place finishers, as did 99% of baseball fans.
The whole organization deserves a ton of credit for doing what they did. Kapler deserves manager of the year and Zaidi deserves executive.
But as I figured, when you're throwing out someone like Camilo Doval, who was pitching in high-A just 50 innings prior, with your season on the line against the Dodgers in the postseason, it most likely isn't going to end well. There pen wasn't their ultimate issue in that series (they didn't hit enough), but it was at the end of game 5.
If the Sox had some competition from at least one other team in their division to keep that marginal value of a win on a daily basis higher than it was, they probably would have won more than the shameful 93 that they did. It would've also helped had they not had the most WAR lost from injuries in the major leagues. They otherwise probably would have been closer to 100. But again, when you effectively clinch in July, you rest guys, skip starts, etc.
You probably will see a lot of teams emulate the Giants this offseason tbh. Zaidi has turned them into one of the best orgs in baseball. Still, my point about Zaidi building a core like Hahn did still stands. Crawford, Posey, Belt, Longoria, Yaz etc. will be gone sooner rather than later. They are going to have the monetary resources to spend expeditiously in the coming offseason, but that almost always how teams SUPPLEMENT their young cores and then find success. Trying to do it the other way around is a lot more difficult.
I'll be very interested to see how they handle their flexibility.
20 Oct 2021 15:00:58
"when you're throwing out someone like Camilo Doval, who was pitching in high-A just 50 innings prior, with your season on the line against the Dodgers in the postseason"
Tell me you watched ZERO Giants games without telling me you watched ZERO Giants games. It's okay, you've shown your incompetence time and time again. I expect this from you. From his addition back onto the 26-Man roster, Camilo Doval gave up exactly one run, against the Dodgers in Game 5 of the NLDS. 16.1 IP, 22 Ks, 1 ER since September 1st. He WAS the guy for the Giants, and he was dominant. I suspect he'll be a crucial part of the Giants bullpen for a long time.
"But then again, you didn't see this coming. We both projected them as third place finishers, as did 99% of baseball fans. "
Right, but I also didn't stupidly suggest that Zaidi would be contending by 2027, or that the Giants were soooo far away. There's a big difference there.
"my point about Zaidi building a core like Hahn did still stands. "
And my point about Rick Hahn doing NOTHING revolutionary still stands. He didn't "revolutionize" the pre-arb deal. He didn't revolutionize the idea of trading good veterans for good prospects. He's done nothing that anyone is trying to emulate. In fact, his team had absolutely zero depth. None. He was so spineless that his owner wouldn't listen to his input on who the manager should be. So therein lay two serious reasons why Rick Hahn's teams CONTINUE their failure to launch.
But yeah, I'm sure Farhan Zaidi is desperate to emulate a GM (not a president of baseball ops, but an inferior role) who has an abundance of young talent and just finished 14 games behind his team where the average age of starters was over 30-years-old.
My prediction: Rick Hahn emulates Farhan Zaidi, by trying to find undervalued veterans with specific skillsets to help build cheap, but meaningful depth to his team.
That's right, it stands to reason that Rick Hahn will be the emulator.
"Crawford, Posey, Belt, Longoria, Yaz etc. will be gone sooner rather than later. "
I mean, it's not like the Giants don't have Luciano, Ramos, Matos, Bart, Bishop, Toribio, etc. And even if you don't think they'll be good, keep in mind, if the Giants can turn LaMonte Wade, Jr. (who they acquired for the thrice DFA'd Shaun Anderson) into a 117 wRC+ hitter, you'd be silly to think that they can't do it with damn-near anyone.
The Giants will be a very good team for the foreseeable future. The White Sox? We'll see.
20 Oct 2021 15:23:23
The Giants will likely do what they did the past two seasons: find good value 1-year contracts. Think Noah Syndergaard or Andrew Heaney types. They'll do the same with a few position players. I'd imagine they flex their spending muscles with a pitcher and probably go after Kris Bryant, but even that accounts for the organization: the Giants don't have a lock-down 3B prospect out there. And they need a lot of starting pitching.
But they also have intriguing options for pitching: Hjelle, Beck, Frisbee, Plassmeyer, Dabovich, Corry, Ragsdale. And even guys who made appearances in 2021: Santos, Kervin Castro, Sam Long, etc.
The Giants gameplan is, and has been, to win games in the in-between. And they just did, to the tune of MLB's best record. They had to add DeSclafani, Wood, and re-sign Gausman last winter. They have 4 open SP spots instead of 3 this time around, but more options internally.
And the thing is, Austin, the Giants also aren't unwilling to spend money. So they can do whatever they foreseeably wish to do. Seeing what Farhan Zaidi did with this rag-tag roster, I'm not the least bit worried about the future.
They've got a huge group of young, intriguing players for 2022, and a comical depth of riches financially. And yet, their best offseason acquisition will probably be some 48 wRC+ outfielder who they turn into a star.
20 Oct 2021 20:58:28
The fact that he was THE guy for the Giants in their biggest game of the year simply because of a good 16-inning stretch is my point. He was their best option when the Dodgers had Treinen, Jansen and Scherzer. Again, Doval's NOT why they lost that series or even that game necessarily, but he's a big reason why they got outplayed at the end of that game.
The Sox had the most WAR lost from injuries in the entire league in 2021, still won 93 games, and yet they have no depth? I'm not sure I follow. Their farm system is objectively weak, yes, but their depth propelled them in 2021. How did your saying go? "Tell me you didn't watch the White Sox without telling me you didn't watch the White Sox. "
But for you, you might even be able to extend that to - "Tell me you don't know baseball without telling me you don't know baseball. "
Also, do me a favor and stop slightly changing the context of my words in your replies, it's very tiresome and childish. Just like I never guaranteed that Cesar Hernandez would be better than Trevor Story like you insinuated, I never said that Hahn revolutionized the GM position, lmao. I simply said that he's done a pretty damn good job. Slow down, read, and fully comprehend hat you're reading. It goes a long way as you attempt to make sound, coherent arguments.
Hahn didn't revolutionize the pre-arb deal, he just started doing it a lot more than every other team and they've all worked out really well so far. If Zaidi is smart, he'll look to extend one or more of their top prospects at an opportune time like Hahn did. Likewise, Hahn and every other GM will likely take a page out of the Giants book in 2022. That's no secret. Again, what he was able to do in 2021 was tremendously impressive and no one is arguing against that.
Also, let's look at the facts here:
Do the White Sox have a young, affordable, major league performant core currently? Yes.
Do the Giants have a young, affordable, major league performant core currently? No.
Do the Giants have a good looking farm system that COULD turn into a young affordable core? Yes.
Therefore, is Farhan Zaidi (and literally every baseball ops executive across the league) constantly attempting to do what Rick Hahn did by building a young, affordable, major league performant core? Precisely.
I don't blame you for being confident in the Giants ability to turn the group you mentioned into a solid core, but to say something like "no one is trying to emulate Hahn" is just objectively wrong. Every team is desperately trying to build a good young core - that's the first big step usually. The Sox haven't supplemented the core optimally yet, and that's been their new goal.
Your determination to not give the White Sox a lick of credit is unnecessary. You wanted them to lose so bad.
"He was so spineless that his owner wouldn't listen to his input on who the manager should be. "
I think you're confused. This isn't how organizational hierarchies work. Hahn reports to Jerry Reinsdorf and Zaidi reports to Charles Johnson. Hahn not being able to go over JR's head to hire the manager of his choice doesn't make him "spineless" lol. That's not how it works. Jerry literally owns the team. What he says, goes. He wanted to hire his buddy, TLR, so that's what happened. Hahn can't just tell his boss no, lmao. You might learn that after you graduate high school.
If Charles Johnson woke up today and after donating a couple more million to QAnon, called Zaidi and said "we're firing Kapler and hiring Buck Showalter today and that's that", guess what, Buck Showalter would be the new Giants manager tomorrow and Zaidi, like Hahn, would be left to twiddle his thumbs.
20 Oct 2021 21:05:32
"My prediction: Rick Hahn emulates Farhan Zaidi, by trying to find undervalued veterans with specific skillsets to help build cheap, but meaningful depth to his team. "
OMG, stop saying that Zaidi revolutionized acquiring undervalued veterans -- he literally just read Moneyball.
See how dumb that sounds?
25 Oct 2021 19:02:16
See, the difference is, I never actually said Zaidi revolutionalized anything. You literally used that phrase: "So, he's revolutionized the pre-arb extension idea and is trying to avoid what Theo Epstein (twice) couldn't do" (Dec 20, 2020).
Please know the difference, please and thank you.
25 Oct 2021 19:20:18
"The Sox had the most WAR lost from injuries in the entire league in 2021, still won 93 games, and yet they have no depth? I'm not sure I follow"
You see, Craig, when the White Sox play in a division that has the Twins, Royals, Tigers, and the Cleveland Baseball Team, a group of rabid rhesus monkeys could win 93 games. It's not that difficult to comprehend this. Reasonable people can do this. Then again, no one here is accusing you of being reasonable.
"Hahn didn't revolutionize the pre-arb deal"
Except you literally told me that Hahn revolutionalized the pre-arb deal. Those were your exact words. Verbatim. You even went as far as using that exact word. But now, you never said it? You'd make an excellent politician (don't take that as a compliment) .
"Therefore, is Farhan Zaidi (and literally every baseball ops executive across the league) constantly attempting to do what Rick Hahn did by building a young, affordable, major league performant core? Precisely. "
I'll fix that for you: "is Farhan Zaidi (and literally every baseball ops executive across the league) constantly attempting to do what EVERY SUCCESSFUL GM SINCE THE TURN OF THE MILLENIUM did by building a young, affordable, major league performant core?
Precisely. "
Willfully inserting Rick Hahn, as if he's the inventor, revolutionizer, or trailblazer of this strategy is the biggest homer thing to do. Rick Hahn is doing what Jeff Luhnow did, who did what Theo Epstein did, who did what Brian Sabean did. and other GMs who did this same thing. Building a core to win championships pre-dates Rick Hahn.
"If Zaidi is smart, he'll look to extend one or more of their top prospects at an opportune time like Hahn did. "
I'd argue he doesn't need to, simply based off how the Giants spend versus how the White Sox spend. It's pretty clear that Reinsdorf doesn't want to spend a lot of money on his teams. The Giants are willing to, and thus, they aren't afraid of paying arbitration costs or free agency costs. Locking players into long-term deals before they even reach the majors is a good strategy for the White Sox considering their context. But it's by no means necessary for the San Francisco Giants whose financial situation is almost without comparison in the league.
"If Charles Johnson woke up today and after donating a couple more million to QAnon, called Zaidi and said "we're firing Kapler and hiring Buck Showalter today and that's that", guess what, Buck Showalter would be the new Giants manager tomorrow and Zaidi, like Hahn, would be left to twiddle his thumbs. "
Well, considering Charles Johnson has very, very little say in the day-to-day operations, and that the Giants ownership structure gives Larry Baer this control (and has checks and balances in place), this would never happen.
Speaking of not understanding hierarchical structures.
25 Oct 2021 19:31:59
"The fact that he was THE guy for the Giants in their biggest game of the year simply because of a good 16-inning stretch is my point. He was their best option when the Dodgers had Treinen, Jansen and Scherzer. Again, Doval's NOT why they lost that series or even that game necessarily, but he's a big reason why they got outplayed at the end of that game. "
Hello Motte, meet Bailey.
25 Oct 2021 20:26:07
Not to mention, it IS spineless to let your owner do the job he is paying you to do. Jerry Reinsdorf isn't the GM of the White Sox. And if Rick Hahn had a higher amount of T than the guys targeted in that Frank Thomas commercial, he would have been vociferous in his objection to the TLR hire. He wasn't. He publicly made it clear that he supported the decision.
And it's more likely than not, both based on his comments and common sense, that Hahn knew about La Russa's DUI arrest prior to him being hired. And if he didn't, the Hahn is incompetent to be a leader.
There's zero chance they interviewed, hired, on-boarded, and did all the administrative work on TLR and not have Rick Hahn know about this. Zero.
He allowed his boss to micro-manage him and then willfully shut his mouth regarding a DUI arrest that marred the hiring and looked bad on his organization. And he didn't resign? If he's as desirable and as worthy of emulation as you suggest, he'd be able to find a president of baseball ops job tomorrow, with an organization whose owner would listen to him.
And yet, Hahn allowed his team to proceed with hiring a multiple-offense DUI manager, allowed his boss to walk all over him, and still remains with that organization.
Yeah, I feel that "spineless" isn't the right word. It doesn't even come close to accurately defining the character of Rick Hahn. He's much, much worse than spineless.
26 Oct 2021 14:31:32
My point with the pre-arb extensions regarding Hahn was that find me another GM in the arbitration era who has not only done more extensions, but have them pretty much all work wonderfully for the club (so far) . He didn't invent it obviously, but he made it a point of emphasis more than anyone I can remember, unless you have a better example.
"Well, considering Charles Johnson has very, very little say in the day-to-day operations, and that the Giants ownership structure gives Larry Baer this control (and has checks and balances in place), this would never happen. "
Johnson, Baer, whoever. My point still stands. You called Hahn spineless because he doesn't have control over his boss - an awful take
You keep bringing up the AL Central, but the Giants literally went 32-6 against the Rockies and Diamondbacks.
"The Sox had no depth"
"Well, see, yes they did. A lot of their good players got hurt and they replaced them with above average players"
"Oh, dang, well, THEIR DIVSION SUCKED SO HAAA"
Ok, and? Shame on the White Sox for not having better competition in the AL Central? Their pythag win total was 97 and again, they had the most WAR lost due to injury by a wide margin. They could have easily been a 100-win team if they weren't playing literally two of their everyday bats through stretches in June/ July.
"Hello Motte, meet Bailey. "
After you learned about this in English class last month, you have been wearing it out. It doesn't apply here, unfortunately, because you said the Giants were just fine with their bullpen - actually you said it was maybe the best bullpen of all postseason teams. The bullpen didn't really need a Treinen or Jansen per you. That bullpen presented a wildly talented, but woefully unexperienced Doval with their season on the line, and it played out how one would expect. It's not a Jason Motte and Andrew Bailey, you were just wrong.
"he would have been vociferous in his objection to the TLR hire. "
Pretty much everyone believes he was. But seriously, you acting like Hahn presented this idea of hiring TLR to the organization is just wrong. Reinsdorf unilaterally decided this. La Russa is his buddy who he "wrongfully" fired back in the 80s and this was him "righting his wrong". The man is entitled - he has seven rings and anted to say he could hire his Hall of Fame buddy to manage his last era of White Sox teams.
"There's zero chance they interviewed, hired, on-boarded, and did all the administrative work on TLR and not have Rick Hahn know about this. Zero. "
Yeah he couldn't care that much because he owner didn't. Heck, Hahn was probably the one that sent Passan the police report.
" If he's as desirable and as worthy of emulation as you suggest, he'd be able to find a president of baseball ops job tomorrow, with an organization whose owner would listen to him. "
If he didn't already build a damn good team in Chicago, he'd probably be seriously considering the Mets or Padres jobs tbh.
You're seriously overthinking this. When you own a baseball team, you decide what goes and what doesn't. Right after Renteria was fired last year, Hahn said that he was looking for a "younger manager with recent postseason success" before JR said F that and hired TLR.
Go into work tomorrow Nate and tell your boss (or literally the owner of the company) what he or she's going to do for the day and how things are going to run from now on - let me know how that goes for you. Or are you too spineless?
28 Oct 2021 18:44:58
"You keep bringing up the AL Central, but the Giants literally went 32-6 against the Rockies and Diamondbacks. "
They also went 10-9 against the 106-win Los Angeles Dodgers. Interesting how you failed to point that one out. How many 100+ win teams were in the AL Central? Oh wait, they didn't have a second team finish over .500? Oh, whoops.
Imagine having a division with the Twins, Royals, AND the Tigers and having just one above-.500 team. That's pretty bad.
28 Oct 2021 18:59:35
"Go into work tomorrow Nate and tell your boss (or literally the owner of the company) what he or she's going to do for the day and how things are going to run from now on - let me know how that goes for you. Or are you too spineless? "
Well, considering I'm part owner of the business my father and I run (a business telecommunications company), this wouldn't really apply. But let's apply it anyway. If my father started hiring sales representatives without consulting me first, I'd absolutely speak up. Not just because I'm part-owner, but also because sales was delegated to me. That's my realm. There's also a mutual respect between the other owner (my father) and I.
This doesn't seem to be the case in the Chicago White Sox front office. I'd guess it has part to do with a doofus owner and part to do with a limp-wristed, panty-waisted GM.
But if my father (who founded the company) overstepped into my delegated area, and then proceeded to withhold information about that new hire having a criminal record, then I'd 100% step down.
Once again, Rick Hahn didn't do this. He has no right to speak up about TLR's issues and still be willfully and gainfully employed by that organization. None.
Once again, it's a serious, serious character issue on Hahn's part. His boss tried to hide the manager's DUI arrest (which, again, wasn't his first offense) and allowed it to potentially hold negative ramifications on Rick Hahn, Kenny Williams, and others within the organization (none of whom have the financial leverage that Reinsdorf has) .
A man with scruples would have resigned and refused to work in such an environment. Not Rick Hahn. He stuck around and even came around to praise TLR on many, many different occasions.
I firmly believe he's a bad person for it. But you continue to worship him at his altar. Says a lot about you, to be honest.
28 Oct 2021 20:03:40
Right, I think we should shame the White Sox due to the incompetency of Cleveland, Kansas City, Detroit and Minnesota in 2021. It's entirely Rick Hahn and the White Sox's fault for their poor play.
"Imagine having a division with the Twins, Royals, AND the Tigers and having just one above-.500 team. That's pretty bad. "
You realize this leaves just one other team right? LOL. The AL Central race probably would have been at least a little different if Cleveland didn't lose their entire starting rotation to injury in the middle of the season.
29 Oct 2021 19:58:39
You're not being serious, are you? So I guess Cashman should resign because of Aroldis Champman and Dombrowski because of Odubel Herrera and their domestic violence issues. How about Chaim Bloom? He rehired the architect of the Astros cheating scandal. How about Al Avila in Detroit? How could Alex Anthopolis GM such a blatantly racist Atlanta Braves organization? How could Zaidi work for someone like Charles Johnson? He must support QAnon.
Right, right, right but Rick Hahn has moral issues because his boss went over his head to hire his friend who's a borderline alcoholic.
We don't know for sure what was said regarding TLR's hire behind closed doors. For all we know, Hahn could have been adamant that it would be a terrible move. What we do know is that before he was hired and AFTER La Russa was interviewed, Hahn expressed publicly that, again, they were looking for a quote "young manager with recent postseason success. " Heck, when they posted the "Welcome back to Chicago! " Tony La Russa hiring announcement graphics on Twitter, A. J. Hinch's signature was accidentally pasted next to TLR's name. Who do you think most of the org figured was going to be hired until the eleventh hour?
I'm one of the biggest TLR haters out there in terms of Sox fans and I don't even drink because of potential problems like DUIs which is an awful action, but to act like La Russa is a horrible human being given what others have done and still remain affiliated with MLB is a terrible take, but you may just be trolling at this point. At least I hope so for your sake.
05 Nov 2021 14:02:22
"but to act like La Russa is a horrible human being given what others have done and still remain affiliated with MLB is a terrible take"
You know two things can be true at the same time, right? I think it's important that you understand this. TLR willingly, knowingly getting behind the wheel while intoxicated on more than one occasion, which risks the lives of every person around him, puts him solely in the "horrible human being" category. He's there along with Chapman or Herrera.
And also, if you think a guy donating to candidates who support a stupid conspiracy theory is the same as a guy who risks killing people by drinking and driving, then you're the one trolling here.
As far as Giants ownership goes, Charles Johnson doesn't even have a voice within the Giants front office. That's handled by Larry Baer and Greg Johnson (who states that he doesn't hold his father's political views) . He's literally principal owner, meaning he put up the most money and has the largest stake should the team get sold. He's rarely even in the board meetings (again, his son does that on his behalf) .
Meanwhile, Rick Hahn WAS in the meetings. Regardless of what he may or may not have voiced prior to TLR's hiring, he still willingly stuck around with a club that employed him. He can voice whatever he feels now, but he still stayed with the White Sox. That much won't change.
But hey, TLR was never accused of beating his spouse. He just risked killing people behind the road. He's not that bad of a guy, right? Right?
I really hope you have a few more scruples about you this this, Dominic, but you're doing your damnedest to convince me otherwise.