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02 Dec 2020 08:45:22
Let me extend an olive branch to Chi Sox, publicly.

We've had some pretty extreme conversations on here. I'll be honest, I enjoy them. I enjoy getting you worked up, and enjoy seeing the wild takes you'll make to justify an opinion, even when it's clear I'm messing with you. But I've also learned a lot from you and genuinely enjoy talking baseball. If I didn't enjoy these convos, I wouldn't engage in them.

However, it seems that we've reached a point in which it has become juvenile, obnoxious, and frankly, ridiculous. I play as much a role in it as you.

We're both passionate about our teams, and it's clear we both have strong opinions. That's perfectly okay. It's baseball. It's a game made for the fans, to be fans.

But we need to both agree, publicly, not to continue the ridiculous behavior here. No more making posts directly, or indirectly calling out the other over a difference of opinion.

No more personal shots or calling out one's character. No more shots below the belt.

Let's agree to disagree on the White Sox and Giants. If we can't do that, then at least agree to leave the other alone.

It's really time we move on, quit being childish, and enjoy baseball.

Agree?

natedog

 

 

24 Nov 2020 14:32:42
Some trades for y'all to downvote:

Trade #1
Giants get: Blake Snell
Rays get: Joey Bart

Explanation: The Giants need, and said they will absolutely target SP. Considering they have Posey at C, and Patrick Bailey (who was a Zaidi pick), would they trade Joey Bart (not a Zaidi pick) for a really, really good lefty?

The Rays getting an MLB ready catcher (and a top 15 prospect) for Snell would be a huge get.

Trade #2
Dodgers get: Josh Hader
Brewers get: Edwin Rios, Jacob Amaya, Andy Pages

Explanation: Edwin Rios is very, very good. He's super underrated, and the Brewers need corner infield help badly. Rios fits that need. He'll hit 30 HRs in Milwaukee, easily.

Trade #3
White Sox get: Lance Lynn
Rangers get: Danny Mendick, Micker Adolfo, Bryce Bush, Andrew Dalquist

Explanation: Lynn is pretty underrated as far as pitchers go. He'd make a lot of sense for Chicago. Chicago gives up a lot of potential here, but it's also not a lot of high impact players, but it gives the Rangers a lot to work with.

#4
Diamondbacks get: Benintendi
Red Sox get: Jon Duplantier, Stuart Fairchild, Josh Rojas

Explanation: Mike Hazen gets one of his guys back from Boston, and the Red Sox get a lot of pieces they can use almost immediately. Duplantier would be the cash cow here for Boston. Cheap, controllable SP to work with.

natedog

1.) 24 Nov 2020 18:27:04
Trade # 1: An additional prospect would be needed from the SF Giants. someone like Blake Rivera who is an upside SP prospect with quite a bit of development in front of him. but, with a ceiling that says he could become something.

Trade # 2: Is a poor return for one of the best closers in MLB. Rios is a needed player and should remain as part of the deal. but, more is needed.

Trade # 3: Quantity over Quality. the CWSox would say YES to this deal almost without thinking. from the Ranger's perspective. Danny Mendick is just like six other utility guys they have. Adolfo showing he's back to being healthy is unknown. Dahlquist is so young, the Rangers won't know what they're getting. etc If the CWSox were to add someone like Jake Burger (who's blocked and will remain blocked by Yoan Moncada) . this could be a fairer deal.

Trade # 4: Benintendi needs to stay in Boston. The very poor results from 2020 *SSS, and reduced output in 2019. looks more like a salary dump than a "eureka" for the DBax. DBax should pass on this short term guy. nothing fixes this deal.

Thoughts? .


2.) 24 Nov 2020 18:50:16
1. The Giants could give up a lesser prospect. I think it's closer to fair, considering the Rays are getting a top 15 prospect, who is also an MLB-ready catcher for a guy with three years before free agency. But I could see the Giants adding in someone like Rivera.

2. I disagree. Hader is coming off a pretty bad season, regardless of how short is was. He had a high xFIP on an unsustainably low BABIP. That's a bad combo. Obviously if they are offered more, they should take it. But they'll be lucky to even get JUST Rios for him, let alone other pieces.

3. The Rangers would serve better to get quantity, especially a couple of guys who are MLB-ready and controllable. Lynn also only has a year remaining, so getting great value from a rental that isn't an elite pitcher is probably not going to happen.

4. Boston likes Benintendi. He's a good fit there. This was more of a trade to get a guy Mike Hazen has spoken very highly of. And it wouldn't cost them much. Duplantier isn't going to start in Arizona. He'd be a good pickup for Boston in exchange for a depressed value player. Arizona can give him the benefit of a hitters park.

Good thoughts all around.


3.) 25 Nov 2020 04:11:31
FWIW, Lynn has the 8th highest fWAR of any pitcher over the last 3 seasons. He is a very good 1 year rental option.


4.) 25 Nov 2020 13:52:48
I agree he's a very good rental option. I just don't know if the Rangers are going to get an elite prospect in return for him.

Getting a lot of high-upside pieces in a fairly weak farm system would be ideal for Texas.


5.) 25 Nov 2020 16:23:02
The Giants trading young talent for a guy that is signed for the next 3 seasons where the Giants won't be contending for at least 2/ 3rds of that deal doesn't seem like a wise path to me. I guess if butts in seats is the goal it's fine.

I also don't think Bart for Snell 1:1 is what they Rays would be looking for. Bart was unfairly rushed by the Giants and he needs more seasoning in the minors. I think the Rays would prefer a prospect that can better impact their 2021 team, something the Giants can't exactly offer.

If they neglect that last point, I think the Rays would insist on Luciano + Corry + 2 others.


6.) 25 Nov 2020 16:50:39
For what it's worth, I reached to multiple authors at Baseball Prospectus with my idea, using the handy Google Email application. Most didn't respond (as I expected) . One did respond. Here's what they told me:

"Interesting idea, Nate! As it stands now, no. It doesn't make sense. But if the Giants could land someone like Trevor Bauer, it makes every bit of sense. The Rays would want Bart for the future, the Giants build a very solid rotation. "

I'm not going twenty rounds with you on this. The Giants aren't trading Luciano, and if they do, it's certainly not going to be for Blake Snell. If Bobby Evans were around, they absolutely would have.

Luciano is that guy most teams have: an elite prospect whose potential is just too much to give away. Think of guys like Torres, Robert, Acuna, Soto, Franco. You don't give away prospects like that. Luciano is that prospect for the Giants. I don't see him being dealt in any scenario, for anything short of a Ronald Acuna, Mike Soroka, Ian Anderson package. (It's exaggerated, but you get the point. I think. )


7.) 29 Nov 2020 05:02:36
The the advice from you're buddy at BP! - "As it stands now, no. It doesn't make sense. "

Word of the wise.


8.) 29 Nov 2020 12:20:02
Your entire Snell trade was based around the notion that the White Sox have to also get Springer to make it make sense.

FWIW, Springer, like most elite free agents, isn't going to play for La Russa. So, I guess at the very least, you can go to the attic and dig up your old Adam Eaton White Sox jersey.


9.) 29 Nov 2020 20:29:51
"Your entire Snell trade was based around the notion that the White Sox have to also get Springer to make it make sense. "

Nope, not true. It just makes sense.

Also, money talks my friend.


10.) 30 Nov 2020 13:45:18
Yes, it's true. It's almost exactly what you said. Your own quote:

"I think 8 combined seasons of Snell + Springer would outperform 11 seasons of Vaughn + Kopech"

Do you need reminded that the White Sox don't currently have George Springer? So, yeah, in order for "8 seasons of Snell + Springer" to outperform 11 seasons of Vaughn + Kopech", you kind of need George Springer for that to be the case.


11.) 30 Nov 2020 13:48:41
And for what it's worth, I'll give you a bit of credit. Eno Sarris of The Athletic made the Vaughn + Kopech + Stiever trade idea for Snell. So you that was good.

However, if you're a fan of Andrew Vaughn, I absolutely wouldn't read the article, as Eno Sarris basically downplays the talent of Vaughn in no uncertain terms.

Some gemz:

"Vaughn currently has a below-replacement projection next to his name. "

"Vaughn has his supporters, but his subpar slugging numbers, and the fact that the White Sox didn’t share alternate site data from the 2020 season, means the Rays would be acting on faith if they trade for him"

And finally,

"To wit; every other centerpiece here is projected to be league average or better, "

Sarris doesn't believe that either Vaughn or Kopech will be league average. I'd more than certainly believe other experts feel the same way.

As will the Tampa Bay Rays. Ouch.


12.) 30 Nov 2020 16:25:41
First off all - my Snell proposal was in no way contingent on them signing Springer. My rationale was that since there were rumors of Sox interest in Springer and their expected (relatively) high-spending propensity this offseason, trading for Snell first and addressing their more pressing need (a SP) would make a Springer signing make a lot more sense. This is given the need aspect, but also the financials. Getting Snell for less than $11 million in 2021 gives you a better ability to spend $20+ million AAV on a RFer, a less pressing need.

Even without Springer, acquiring Snell and the surplus value he carries is obviously a plus.

Next, I really like Eno, but this seems like a weird argument. Vaughn would have a below league average projection on a system projecting off of his high-A numbers. He'd have to have like a 200 wRC+ in Winston-Salem for Depth Charts, Steamer, or whatever system you like, to project Vaughn as above average in 2021. It's not building in the context of the C. V. Also, the White Sox would share their alternate site data with the Rays in Blake Snell negotiations -- they just didn't at the 2020 deadline when all they were looking to acquire was the likes of Jarrod Dyson and Yolmer Sanchez -- there was just no need. It's evident why the projection systems *currently* don't like Vaughn, and this is not to downplay their functionality entirely, but no one in their right mind believes that Andrew Vaughn projects in the major leagues as below replacement level.

"as Eno Sarris basically downplays the talent of Vaughn" -- "Sarris doesn't believe that either Vaughn or Kopech will be league average. "

These are absolutely untrue statements. You're now not only twisting my words, but the words of Eno Sarris. No worries, I'll assist with some comprehension.

Sarris is not going against every reputable site and scout that has him in the top-20 prospects in baseball. He's saying there's uncertainty with Vaughn given that we are only looking at 250 PAs in A-ball from literally his draft year, which some evaluators consider a wash anyway.

Even with Vaughn's great projectablility as a top prospect, this uncertainty and the position he plays warrants the inclusion of Kopech, which is exactly the point I made initially -- but I was told this was a huge overpay by people including Nate.

"The Rays would be acting on faith if they trade for him"

To a certain extent, every team that ever trades for a prospect is acting on faith - faith in their scouts, data analysts, player development systems and projection models that each prospect will in fact turn out.

Again, Eno is one of my favorite writers in the industry, but I don't necessarily agree with his outlook on Vaughn and that's fine, or at lease how he's portraying his outlook. I think we share the opinion on relatively what it would take to acquire Snell, although Stiever as the third piece is a little rich for my taste. What you should notice is that there's no Joey Bart straight up for a top-20 pitcher in baseball that's owed $39 million over 3 years deal in here. Again, Eno understands the leverage that the Rays would have in these talks, and that's reflected in all 5 of his trades from that piece. This is one of many things I was trying to get you to understand, Nate.


13.) 30 Nov 2020 17:45:59
Right, why would they give up Jonathan Stiever when they get Brandon Nimmo for him, amirite?

As for him not including Joey Bart, I'd imagine if he pulled a Bleacher Report-style article and included a deal from every team, the Giants' offer would be something like Joey Bart, Alexander Canario, and Logan Webb.

Also, the funny thing about that White Sox trade, it matched literally ZERO of the criteria he put forth in his intro:

"Any centerpiece in a Snell trade will have to be a young major league player who can at least nearly match the pitcher’s production on the field but also be paid less — so let’s look for a major leaguer who is projected to put up at least three wins next year, and is still on a minimum deal, to be our Austin Meadows. Then the Rays would want a pitcher who is MLB-ready to play the role of Tyler Glasnow, and then some sort of significant prospect piece to mitigate the risk of trading away a more certain thing. "

Let's start with our "Meadows" aka Andrew Vaughn.

Vaughn is nowhere near MLB ready, not by any of the numbers. He played 29 games in High-A ball in 2019, and his production was fairly mediocre, especially in the context of being a "top 20 prospect". Meadows was hitting 111 wRC+ and a .335 wOBA in his MLB debut in Pittsburgh. Vaughn hasn't even made his MLB debut, and probably won't until closer to July/ August at the earliest.

Now, we move onto "Glasnow", aka Michael Kopech:

Kopech has logged 14 IP in the majors. And hasn't thrown a MLB, or MiLB pitch since September of 2018. Compare that to Glasnow, who had over 140 IP in the Majors (10x more than Kopech) by the time he was traded. Glasnow was 24 when traded, Kopech is the same age this offseason, with 10% of the track record of Glasnow.

And for the "Shane Baz" aka, Michael Stiever:

Stiever is a 40+ FV prospect (remember, YOU were the one who said 40 FV isn't even "good". So I assume 40+ isn't much better) . Shane Baz was the #76 prospect prior to that trade and is a 50 FV prospect now. Mind you, he was also that highly touted at 19, when he was traded. Stiever will be 24 in May (5 years older) and is worse.

So for all the work Sarris did to try and find a trade that matched the Archer trade, literally none of the standards applied to the White Sox trade.

And the other four would quickly, and easily, outbid the White Sox' offer.


14.) 30 Nov 2020 17:58:25
"To a certain extent, every team that ever trades for a prospect is acting on faith - faith in their scouts, data analysts, player development systems and projection models that each prospect will in fact turn out. "

Of course they are. But there's levels of trust. Look at the players mentioned outside the White Sox deal:

Hoskins, Howard, Morales, Verdugo, Casas, Houck, Gurriel, SWR, Kirk, Morejon, Patino, Campusano.

With the exception of three of those guys (Casas, SWR, Morales), we have seen some MLB time and can better identify what would be needed to fix or work on.

Stiever is the only one who wouldn't require "operating on faith", but we also understand he's objectively the worst name mentioned in the entire article. So while we "know" what he's capable of, the bar is also incredibly low, comparatively.

So while the Rays will have to act in faith on a few players, they likely don't want to do that for the entire package they receive. They'll want commodities that they know can, to an extent, play at the MLB level. I'm not sure we can say that, at all, about Vaughn or Kopech, or even Stiever, for that matter.

As a thought exercise: would you give up Lucas Giolito for three people who, combined have 20 IP in the majors over the PAST 3 seasons, and that's it? Of course you wouldn't.


15.) 30 Nov 2020 19:37:32
Sarris lined up his criteria for a trade and then included the Sox package as one of five, actually the 1st one outlined. Did he not? The Sox have the best package in that piece, easily. Don't overthink this to fit your own narrative.

Philly's package is nice, but does Philly do that? More a key cog out of their lineup that may also be losing Realmuto? Trade 2 more pitchers that will be in Philadelphia in 2021? unlikely IMO.

Are the Rays going to trade Snell in division? I'd doubt it. And I'd argue that SD's package, a team that already traded a lot to get a starter, is objectively worse. The White Sox make the most sense to over pay for Snell, in my opinion, given A. their current window, B. an already strong lineup and bullpen that can manage the loss of impact prospects, and C. Having those kind of high upside, MLB-ready (or very close to MLB-ready) prospects to move.

While the package doesn't align perfectly with the Archer package, Vaughn and Kopech are the best 2 prospects mentioned in the article, but still, the Sox pay up for the uncertainty with the only 2 top-20 prospects mentioned. We may be on reply 8 or so of me mentioning this.

But in terms of type of players, Vaughn:Meadows and Kopech:Glasnow is pretty darn similar.

"Vaughn is nowhere near MLB ready" lol, then neither is Joey Bart. Vaughn will play the majority of 2021 in MLB, as will Kopech, barring injury.

How do you "know what Steiver is capable of"? From the 2 MLB starts this year?

"As for him not including Joey Bart, I'd imagine if he pulled a Bleacher Report-style article and included a deal from every team, the Giants' offer would be something like Joey Bart, Alexander Canario, and Logan Webb. "

No, no no, not so fast. To compare with the other packages "on the table", it would be Bart + 1 of Luciano, Ramos or Bishop. Not Canario conveniently for the Giants. Try again.

I don't even know your stance anymore. First my Snell proposal was a significant over pay, then it was an underpay, now we have top writers throwing out almost the same trade. I'm not sure.

"As a thought exercise: would you give up Lucas Giolito for three people who, combined have 20 IP in the majors over the PAST 3 seasons, and that's it? Of course you wouldn't. "

Obviously not. But the White Sox don't have to make the same financial decisions as the Rays. The darn context is important Nate.


16.) 30 Nov 2020 20:54:55
"While the package doesn't align perfectly with the Archer package"

You don't say? It's objectively worse, in every possible way. And Snell is better than Archer, in every possible way. Would it not stand to reason that the Snell trade should demand MORE than the Archer trade?

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone gives that kind of an overpay for Snell like they did for Archer. That Archer trade legitimately got a GM fired.

And my stance hasn't changed. I still think your trade is a massive overpay. Frankly, I think Vaughn + a 40 FV prospect is more than enough for Blake Snell, who is coming off a season with a 1.6 adjusted fWAR. He wasn't even league-average in 2020, and was just okay in 2019. From 2019-20, Snell's 3.3 wins puts him behind Jon Gray and Chris Bassitt. It ranks him with Matthew Boyd and John Means.

If you take just his 2020 numbers, he tied with Alex Cobb, Mike Fiers, and Danny Duffy, to name a few. Some of that is his lack of innings in 2020, and the fact that the Rays pulled him before the 6th inning in every start. But let's not pretend that we're trading for Walker Buehler here.

There's a lot of uncertainty all around. The Rays are not going to get two top 20 prospects for Blake Snell. I'm not sure they get two top 50 prospects for him, not in this market and not considering the financial circumstances at play.

IF they get two top 50 guys, they'll be guys who are fringy candidates and are littered with serious question marks. Kopech probably fits that profile. Kopech has a significant of work to do to match the hype he came with. I strongly doubt he ever lives up to it. He's another Carson Fulmer type, honestly.


17.) 30 Nov 2020 21:02:13
And really, the confusing part was yours. My mind has never changed on Snell. I think it's an overpay. But I also think you managed to put together a trade that is 100% an overpay, and also with one player who is all hype and no substance.

YOU, on the other hand, acted like it wasn't an overpay. In fact, based on your own words, "I think 8 combined seasons of Snell + Springer would outperform 11 seasons of Vaughn + Kopech. "

So, really, it's an underpay.

But it's also a perfect trade. And it's also the most perfect trade anyone has ever made on this site. It's a trade that zero teams, based on your views, can match (news flash: EVERY team can match that trade) . And it perfectly fits the Rays every need, even though it matches literally zero of them.

See, Jeff, I've never stood on the principle that my trade is better than everyone's here. I've just stated that it is OBJECTIVELY better than YOURS.

The funny thing is: neither your team, nor mine are going to land Blake Snell. Like most players, Snell would retire from baseball before playing for Tony La Russa, and the Giants aren't trading Joey Bart.

So really, this is all moot. You're getting REALLY worked up about someone disagreeing with your made up trade.

Maybe you can make up a Jonathan Stiever for Brandon Nimmo trade and it'll make you feel all better.


18.) 30 Nov 2020 21:30:25
"And my stance hasn't changed. I still think your trade is a massive overpay. "

Shot.

"So, really, it's an underpay. "

Chaser.

Point=Proven.


19.) 30 Nov 2020 21:55:32
Maybe 20-25 teams *could* match the trade, but how many *would*? Not very many at all. The Sox are one of very few teams where trading 2 top-50 prospects for Snell would make sense. Yeah, there's a 95% chance he's still in Tampa Bay in 2021, but Vaughn + Kopech, etc. is the kind of deal that gets the ball significantly rolling. The Rays are making him available in case someone like the White Sox would be willing to make a deal like the one I proposed.

"even though it matches literally zero of [the Rays' needs]"

Vaughn: controllable, high upside, top-20 prospect, potential cornerstone bat of a poor franchise

Kopech: Ace potential, another top-20 prospect, for a team that develops raw stuff as well as any team in the industry.

Quite the puzzling statement. Add it to the (increasingly extensive) list!

"Snell would retire from baseball before playing for Tony La Russa"

You can speak for Blake Snell? Oh, ok. Snell would likely gladly pitch for the White Sox deep into the postseason for a manager that will let him throw 3 or maybe even 4 times through the order if he's looking good. He's an elite starting pitcher in MLB. Over the last 3 seasons, he's 1 of 11 pitchers with a sub-.330 xFIP.

Who's that better than? Oh right, Walker Buehler.

Snell is virtually identical to Buehler in fWAR/ IP. So, yeah, if it weren't for age and contractual control disparities, we are, in fact, essentially talking about trading for Walker Buehler.

The Rays hold the all the cards. I get that. Eno Sarris gets that. You unfortunately do not.


20.) 01 Dec 2020 14:10:25
Name me 3 pitchers who missed two full years of development who turned into "aces". If you can even list ONE, I'll concede the point.

Kopech isn't "ace potential" anymore. He's probably closer to Reynaldo Lopez than he is Lucas Giolito. I'd wager he's closer to Carson Fulmer than Lopez even still.

He's no longer a "raw" pitcher. He's a pitcher that missed extremely vital and crucial time necessary for development. The Rays are great at developing pitching, but even they'll have their limitations.

A prime example of this is Brent Honeywell. Honeywell hasn't thrown an "affiliated" pitch since 2017. The time he missed is undoubtedly going to create risk for the Rays, who are seeking to win the AL East again. He's out of options, and there's no knowing how he'll actually pitch come Spring Training.

I have a pretty strong belief that the Rays don't want two guys just like Brent Honeywell.

And before you try and act like they aren't the same. I agree. Brent Honeywell doesn't come with the off-field issues like Kopech. So, in many ways, Kopech is a persona non grata for teams. He's missed too much time and until he proves that he's worth the hype he came with, no one is buying it.

The Rays don't need more guys with off-field issues. Their franchise has had more than their fair share of them. And they don't need another over-hyped 1B prospect. They've seen their fair share as well.

You can hear it from me first: Andrew Vaughn will not have one season above 3 wins in his career. Not a single one.


21.) 01 Dec 2020 20:36:59
So first, Vaughn was "very, very good" and adding Kopech made my initial Snell proposal a "major overpay".

Now, according to you, Vaughn "will not have one season above 3 wins in his career" and Kopech is now closer to Carson Fulmer or Reynaldo Lopez than a good pitcher?

Very tough to follow, but you move the goal posts so often it's so typical.

Vaughn still has .300/ .400/ .500 potential and Kopech sits 98-100 with an exploding high spin, high spin-efficient 4-seamer to go along with a 65-grade slider and feel for a change and curveball. The best FA pitcher on the market this offseason has shown that off-the-field issues are not a death sentence to your on-the-field performance. Kopech is a top-20 prospect everywhere for a reason. His development in Tampa would be potentially scary. Look what they did for Glasnow - a similar pitcher to Kopech but wasn't as highly regarded.

You're starting to pull narratives out of your rear end.


22.) 01 Dec 2020 21:01:53
He's a top 20 prospect everywhere because no one has enough data from 2020 to move anyone lol.

And Glasnow didn't miss two crucial years of development. He had 140 IP in the MAJORS and was on the 25-man roster when traded. The example of Glasnow couldn't be any further from reality.

And yeah, it's not a "death sentence", but when your pitcher is taking a year off for supposedly mental health reasons, that's going to raise serious red flags to anyone in baseball.

Except you, apprarently.

Although, you'd be trashing Kopech for those exact reasons every which way to Sunday if it weren't for the team next to his name.


23.) 01 Dec 2020 21:10:07
Also, I first thought it was an overpay. Then you explained to me how much of an underpay it truly was, and showed every reason why the Rays SHOULDN'T accept the deal.

So I began to look into Vaughn and Kopech a little closer. And the more I looked, the more I realized that the two—especially Kopech—aren't very good. It's okay to admit this. You won't get thrown out of Guaranteed Rate Field for admitting the truth. (They can't throw you out, otherwise they only have 14 people left in the stands. )

Kopech's mental health issues alone is going to raise serious red flags, and I'd imagine Boston's ownership is thrilled to let him be someone else's problem.

But if ever there was a fit for an over-rated, has-been prospect with known behavioral and mental health issues, the team that knowingly employed a 76-year-old man with active DUI charges against him seems like the PERFECT fit.

La Russa and Kopech were made for each other.

Anyhoo, enjoy Erik Katz as the pitching coach. Seems like Rick Hahn has to emulate Farhan Zaidi by hiring one of his coaches. Maybe he'll fix Kopech for y'all.


24.) 02 Dec 2020 02:07:55
It's Ethan Katz.

If that isn't symbolic of this whole ordeal, I don't know what is.


25.) 02 Dec 2020 08:03:41
"He's a top 20 prospect everywhere because no one has enough data from 2020 to move anyone lol. "

Or because in March he was sitting 101 along with the other stuff i described? Until he isn't doing that, he's a top prospect. No matter what his off-the-field issues are.

But really, you're seriously going to bag on the kid because he's battling depression? He's made for TLR? What does even mean? Shame on you. It's a low blow, even for someone with the less than desirable moral character you've showed on this forum. It's 2020 -- teams literally employ sport psychologists for things like this.

The amount of pro athletes that have likely battled the same demons is probably vast, but not a lot were brave enough to be vocal about it. He was also going through a divorce right before summer camp started. He's really not a problem - he's a genuinely good kid and an elite talent. One that the Red Sox struggled to part with, the White Sox are still thrilled to have, and the Rays would love to put their magic finishing touches on through his development.

Flip flopping and now saying that Vaughn and Kopech are not good players is such a trolling comment that there's not a whole lot left to say. If they aren't good prospects, then I'm afraid I have some bad news for the entire Giants farm system.

I think Neander would drool over this offer and take it quickly. The more I think about it, however, I just don't think it would be on the table -- as much as I think it should be. This magnitude of a return is likely what it's going to take to get Snell because he doesn't have to be traded at all and likely why he won't be.


26.) 02 Dec 2020 13:55:09
It's not bagging on a guy to state that he deals with mental health issues. It's an EXTREMELY relevant part of dealing with Kopech.

Look, Kopech needs to get the help he needs, clearly. And hopefully for his sake, 2020 was that chance. But his ability to hit 101 on the radar gun won't matter if he's unavailable to pitch because he's on the Restricted List or because his off-field problems lead to his unavailability in any capacity (i. e. 2020).

The Rays, or any team for that matter, aren't taking a guy who they don't even know if they can rely on to be on the field. It's one thing if the guy is battling injuries, it's another when it's emotional/ mental health issues, which point to a larger issue that is usually much more difficult to manage.

Have you ever hired anyone? Had to manage anyone dealing with mental health issues? Honestly. I have. I have them in my family. And they are as unreliable as it gets. That's not bagging on them, it's the truth.

If something as innocuous as getting a divorce is enough to force Kopech to take a break from baseball—while obviously it's better for him to take care of it—that's alarming to teams. And it's indicative of a player who, although very talented, will probably be limited by demons.

It's not knocking Kopech to mention this. And the TLR comment was pretty obviously to rag on the White Sox, who KNOWINGLY HIRED A GUY WITH DUI CHARGES to be their manager. It seems like they genuinely don't care about anything but trying to win (which is odd, because they also hired Tony La Russa) . People who hire guys like TLR have massive moral issues.

And, unfortunately, if the White Sox will overlook something as bad as a DUI, do you honestly think they are paying close enough attention to, or even care about, someone on their team who could be a serious problem down the road?

Doubt it.

Kopech's "value" is absolutely tied to his mental health issues. You can pretend it's not, you can act really offended by someone saying this, but it's 100% relevant and I guarantee the conversations among GMs in any trade discussion would be 10X harsher and less gracious than I'm being.


27.) 02 Dec 2020 20:14:33
FWIW, taking several months off of work because of you divorced your spouse is not normal behavior. I won't pretend to know the circumstances, and won't buy into speculations about it. But that's not normal behavior, and is certainly indicative of larger issues.

As someone who has dealt with mental health issues in the past, I'll be the first to say that businesses, especially sports teams where guys are paid 6-8 figure salaries, are taking on guys who are total enigmas. If Kopech will opt out because he got divorced, what's next? His dog died, so now, no more baseball?

If that seems exaggerative, it's really not. People who fight depression and anxiety to those extremes are prone to being flighty at work. I know, because I was once there.

The point is, why would the Rays, or any team, pay top-shelf price for a pitcher with known issues, and ones where his own coaches (who know him pretty well) publicly express deep levels of concern for him?

It's foolish to brush the mental health issues aside and treat them like they don't matter. They do. Because the truth is, it won't matter if he can throw 101 if he's not on the field for whatever reason. And over the past 24 months, he's been off the field a whole heck of a lot more than he's been on it. And that'll concern GMs.

You never answered my question, either. Name me just one player who missed two years of minor-league development who came back and pitched like an "ace" for his career? By development, I mean a guy between the ages of 18-25, not someone like Rich Hill.

Just one player. I'm not sure you can find me one. Kopech's value is totally tanked. And if he can log 50+ innings and not get hit all over the yard, you should be VERY HAPPY. I'm not betting that'll happen.

Frankly, I think you've seen the best of Michael Kopech in baseball. I'll take that bet every day.


28.) 02 Dec 2020 23:30:38
Every time I saw his name, I thought it was Erik Kratz. It's an easy mistake to make.

But I think it's actually more ironic than you're willing to admit (or, more realistically, than you're able to comprehend) .

Rick Hahn is taking a coach from the GM who is supposed to be emulating HIM, not the other way around. According to you, it should be the Giants who are hiring the White Sox coaches.

You don't find it a bit ironic that the World Champion White Sox are getting an assistant coach from the minor-league Giants?

I guess, considering the context of your recent comments about the Giants, and about Zaidi needing to emulate Hahn, I found it funny that Hahn hired a coach away from him, and, again, not the other way around.

FWIW, the ONLY reason Katz is going to Chicago is because he coached Giolito at Harvard-Westlake. Nepotism hires don't typically work out very well in baseball. But I expect the ever innovative Rick Hahn to make the most of the opportunity, just like he did from 2013-2017.


 

 

05 Nov 2020 17:35:58
Possible White Sox trades:

1. Trade Jonathan Stiever, Zack Burdi, and Adam Engel to Washington for Juan Soto.

Note: How could Washington not trade their over-rated OF for a bunch of hugely undervalued future superstars?

2. Trade Micker Adolfo and Jose Ruiz to Atlanta for Mike Soroka.

Note: Atlanta would be foolish not to take this. The out-of-options stars from Chicago carry way more surplus value than the ace who was only worth 0.3 WAR in 2020.

3. Trade Reynaldo Lopez to San Diego for Fernando Tatis, Jr.

Note: Tatis isn't very good. Why else did we trade him to San Diego for James Shields in the first place? So giving up Lopez is already a lot, but we feel generous giving up our stud pitcher for their backup SS.

natedog

1.) 05 Nov 2020 19:53:20
Rent free.


2.) 05 Nov 2020 20:11:41
Okay fine. Nationals add Trea Turner.

I expect nothing less from the Sporting News Executive of the Year.


3.) 05 Nov 2020 20:22:08
I know you’re not used to people caring about what you say or paying attention to you, Chi Sox. So I get you being surprised.

I guess revel in it. Someone in this world finally cares about you. Congratulations!


4.) 05 Nov 2020 20:35:07
You always care what I say, it's not new. You have turned your presence on this forum solely paying attention to what I say (See: Nate's profile picture) .

It's cool to have a fan!

RENT FREE!


5.) 05 Nov 2020 20:58:31
I do find it funny that you immediately associate a post that is over-the-top, ridiculous, and absolutely not going to happen with yourself. No one mentioned you, but you knew it was about you.

I don’t know about you, but I call that progress.


6.) 06 Nov 2020 16:28:38
Right, I really went out on a limb guessing who this was targeted at.


7.) 07 Nov 2020 06:01:11
I guess that's fair. There's like 7 White Sox fans in America. And the other ones are busy doing something that will actually impact the world in a meaningful way.

So I guess it wasn't that difficult to narrow you down.


8.) 07 Nov 2020 14:54:25
I know this site is for trade ideas. Butttt you got a better change robbing a bank than the Padres just handing Tatis back to the White Sox for a pitcher that's a 4 starter at best right now.

I'd say Micker Adolfo and Jose Ruiz to Atlanta for Mike Soroka and Acuna.


9.) 07 Nov 2020 15:36:43
I'm taking the route of Chi Sox and making a totally unserious baseball trade idea.

It was obviously in jest.


10.) 07 Nov 2020 17:06:39
Rockies Offseason Needs
Trades:
Nolan Arenado and David Dahl to Rangers for Joey Gallo, Lance Lynn, and Jose Leclerc

Trevor Story to Dodgers for Max Muncy and Kenley Jansen

Ian Desmond to Indians for Zach Plesac

Signings:
Ozuna-2 Years, 40 million
Lemeheiu: 3 years, 75 million
Gregorius: 4 years, 32 million
Turner: 1 year, 7 million w/ 5 million Club Option 2022
Tanaka: 3 years, 18 million

Lineup:
CF Tapia
2B Lemeheiu
1B Muncy
RF Gallo
DH Ozuna
LF Blackmon
SS Gregorius
3B Turner
C Diaz

Bench:
INF Mcmahon
UTIL Hampson
OF Hilliard
C Wolters


Rotation:
German Marquez
Lance Lynn
Mashiro Tanaka
Kyle Freeland
Zach Plesac

Bullpen:
Long: Gray
Middle:
Jose Leclerc
Mychal Givens
Daniel Bard
Setup: Oberg
Closer: Jansen.


11.) 08 Nov 2020 18:55:56
Plesac ain't going no where and ESPECIALLY for that! .


 

 

03 Nov 2020 15:41:44
Giants Offseason Moves:

Free Agents
Gausman accepts QO 1/18.9M
Re-Sign Drew Smyly, 1/6M
Sign Jose Quintana, 2/18M
Sign Trevor May, 2/14M
Sign Dee Strange-Gordon, 1/5M
Sign Jason Castro, 1/4.5M

Trades:
Acquire Mike Tauchman from NY for 2 low-end prospects

Trade Johnny Cueto and 15M to Atlanta for Touki Toussaint and Viktor Vodnik.

Acquire Dexter Fowler & LHP Matthew Thompson for a PTBNL

Lineup (w/o a DH)
RF- Mike Yastrzemski
2B- Donovan Solano
LF- Alex Dickerson
C- Buster Posey
1B- Brandon Belt
3B- Evan Longoria
SS- Brandon Crawford
CF- Mauricio Dubon

Bench
C- Jason Castro
1B- Darin Ruf
2B- Wilmer Flores
2B- Dee Strange-Gordon
LF- Mike Tauchman

Rotation:
Kevin Gausman (R)
Jose Quintana (L)
Drew Smyly (L)
Tyler Anderson (L)
Logan Webb (R)

Bullpen
CL- Trevor May (R)
SU- Tyler Rogers (R)
SU- Jarlin Garcia (L)
RP- Reyes Moronta (R)
RP- Sam Coonrod (R)
RP- Caleb Baragar (L)
RP- Sam Selman (L)
RP- Touki Toussaint (R)

natedog

1.) 03 Nov 2020 17:01:00
For clarification, the Giants give Dexter Fowler the Zack Cozart treatment and cut him after acquiring him from St. Louis. The prize is Matthew Thompson, who they get for taking on Fowler's contract.


2.) 05 Nov 2020 13:40:00
Also FWIW, it would behoove the Giants to trade Yaz pronto.


3.) 05 Nov 2020 15:59:11
The Yanks value Tauchman more than you do given that you feel you don't need to even name the 2 "low-end" prospects that Giants would trade. They were getting calls about him last off season and at the deadline and weren't willing to give him away. They like him more than Frazier, Gardner's future is uncertain, and Judge and Stanton are made of glass. He's still on a pre-arb deal for 2021!

I also doubt that any team is going to be taking on a lot of dead money this offseason, even the Giants.

You sure the Braves don't want Longoria for Ian Anderson? Their 3B-situation is uncertain!


4.) 05 Nov 2020 17:19:13
I'm sure the Giants will trade Evan Longoria for Brandon Nimmo. After all, according to you, Nimmo is a scrub and can be had for a bunch of prospects no one knows or cares about.

And based on Zaidi's outlooks, he's willing to consider taking on dead money again in 2021 if it brings back the right prospects. In fact, I'd bet teams will give up a lot more value this winter.

As far as Tauchmann, fair enough. He's a fourth outfielder who didn't hit at all in 2020. He's not a good defensive OF either. I guess if the Yankees think they have Judge and Stanton's replacement as a (checks notes) 79 wRC+ hitter, then Cashman is more regressive of a GM than Rick Hahn. And that's really saying something.


5.) 05 Nov 2020 17:29:46
I should make a correction to something I said earlier:

*Cashman is more regressive of a GM than The Defunct Sports Magazine's Executive of the Year Rick Hahn. And that's really saying something.


6.) 05 Nov 2020 18:07:41
And you're right the Giants should trade away Yaz.

How's this?
Jonathan Stiever, Zack Burdi, Adam Engel

FOR

Mike Yastrzemski

The White Sox get 70M in surplus value. The Giants get 2 dollars. I think it sounds fair.

Heck, the Giants will throw in Evan Longoria, Marco Luciano AND 14 billion dollars to make up for the awful surplus value he carries.

So, if you're keeping track at home, that's Stiever, Burdi, Engel for Yaz, Luciano, Longoria + 14B in cash.

What else should we expect from "Executive of the Year"?


7.) 05 Nov 2020 20:18:00
It's probably not wise to use a 111 PA sample from Tauchman in 2020 and then label him as that. It's honestly bad technique.

He was really good in an almost 300 PA sample (and a 2.6 fWAR! ) in 2019 when given more consistent playing time. He's actually a really good defensive OFer if you bother to look at relevant numbers. In 2019, he was in the 93rd percentile of all major league OFers in OAA and had 18 DRS. So, very, very good.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with that Yaz proposal (are you attempting to be funny? ), but we'll see if Zaidi is smart enough to sell him at his highest point. He can call Hahn for advice on how to do that and parlay those kinds of moves into an elite core.

Seems like you're mad Rick Hahn won an award for good work.


8.) 05 Nov 2020 20:34:18
I don’t care about Rick Hahn. Like you, he’ll leave this world being a vapor in the wind that no one remembers.

He won an award given out by a defunct magazine that was still third rate when it existed. It’s now a little worse than Bleacher Report. Good for him, I guess.

And the Yaz trade is a running series of me mocking you for that Nimmo trade. Every time you mention Longoria, I will insist Rick Hahn trades Jonathan Stiever for someone laughable.

I guess I figured that out of your arrogance, posting that Nimmo trade TWICE was something of a parody. I didn’t think someone so arrogant would actually think it’s a good trade idea. So I’ll join you in posting parody ideas.

Oh wait, you were serious? Yikes kid.


9.) 05 Nov 2020 20:54:39
I guess I can keep repeating myself in saying that Farhan Zaidi would be flat out ecstatic to have the San Francisco Giants in the position that the Chicago White Sox currently are in after 3-full rebuilding seasons. You denying that Hahn did a really nice job through the process is just funny. You'd think I'd be a Phillies fan or something.

Oh wait, he'd only has one more season to do that? Good luck.

I'd even give him an extra year. The Giants are looking at 2023 at the earliest, but likely 2024 until they are sniffing .500. But according to you Zaidi can pretty much turn water into wine, so maybe they'll win the World Series next year!


10.) 05 Nov 2020 22:32:17
Since 2019 (Zaidi's first season as Giants President of Baseball Ops), here are the records of the Giants and White Sox:

Giants: 106-116
White Sox: 107-114

The White Sox are 1.5 games better than the Giants since 2019. 1.5 GAMES!

So, that should tell you one of two things, you can pick:

1. The Giants are much better than you're giving them credit for. Zaidi's best two players have been Yaz and Solano, both of whom he got for nothing (Solano was a minor-league signing) .

2. The White Sox aren't as good as you think. IF the Giants are so bad, then the White Sox are barely better than them.

No matter how you spell it, Zaidi has done an absolutely tremendous job in 2 seasons (more like 1.5 seasons) in turning the Giants around, and has done so with players no one believed could win. He has a nearly identical record as the team with guys like Abreu, Robert, Anderson, Moncada, Giolito, etc.

So, either Rick Hahn has his teams vastly under-performing OR Farhan Zaidi is much betten than you're giving him credit for. Those are the only options you have now. After all, he's got an almost identical record to God, I mean, Rick Hahn.


11.) 05 Nov 2020 22:43:48
And the White Sox haven't been "rebuilding" for three seasons. They've been rebuilding for years. They've had nothing to play for. Meanwhile, the Giants won three World Series last decade. The White Sox, meanwhile, in that decade had TWO winning seasons and averaged 74 wins a season. It's easy to build a team when you're always in the Top 10 draft picks.

The Giants gave up major prospect capital (which happens when you try and win THREE World Series), rarely sat in the Top 10 draft picks, and fired their last GM for ruining the team.

And yet, in just two seasons, the White Sox, who have had every advantage in building a younger team, have just a 1.5 game lead over the Giants.

Please, continue to tell me how the Giants' window is still 4 seasons away?


12.) 06 Nov 2020 16:12:39
The Sox were losing games by design from 2017 - 2019. Those were their rebuilding years. I already explained to you the root of the struggles from 09'-16'.

Jerry. Rinesdorf. You can't not spend and subsequently not be able to develop players internally.

But we're talking about the teams in the present, not what they did over the last decade.

Comparing win-loss records, conveniently after a 60-game season, is such a bad argument, but I'm not surprised at all. I'm not arguing that the 2019 Sox were better than the 2019 Giants. No one cares about that. Stop moving the goal posts.

If you think the Giants will be anywhere close to the White Sox in the next 3-5 years, I feel really bad for the disappointment you are about to endure. The Sox are just scratching the surface with a team littered with silver sluggers, gold glove finalists, MVP-candidates, and top-prospects on the brink of promotion.

The Giants' best players are a 30 y/ o corner OFer and a 32 y/ o second baseman. After that, they don't have a single proven major leaguer. Belt and Dickerson (fine players) will both be gone, probably Solano too. Other than Bart, all of their top prospects have ETAs in 2022 or 2023, but they'll be ready to compete before 2024? Good luck. Luciano, Bishop, and Ramos better be extreme impact players from the moment they step on a major league field. The climb is still extremely uphill and Yaz/ Solano will be past their primes by the time they're ready to win. So we're really still talking about building an entire team because there is no guarantee with any prospects - especially those who haven't done much above high-A.

I've given credit to Zaidi. I've said he's done a nice job so far given what he was provided. But you trying to argue that Hahn doesn't have the White Sox exactly where Zaidi is trying to get the Giants is just a fool's errand.


13.) 06 Nov 2020 23:37:00
"Comparing win-loss records, conveniently after a 60-game season, is such a bad argument, but I'm not surprised at all. I'm not arguing that the 2019 Sox were better than the 2019 Giants. No one cares about that. Stop moving the goal posts. "

Says the child who moves the goal posts every other argument. You made up some arbitrary standard for Rick Hahn's "3-year rebuild", meanwhile, they weren't even a remotely decent team prior to those three years. Hahn has the benefit of a decade of having a putrid baseball team to have built off of.

You also created some silly standard saying the Giants won't sniff .500 until 2024, never mind they were close in both of the last two seasons, despite having only two "proven major leaguers".

And you're right, what the Giants have now is all they'll ever have. Farhan Zaidi doesn't have a remarkable track record of reviving careers of players nearly everywhere he's been. I mean, we probably should just ignore the resurgences of Justin Taylor, Max Muncy, Chris Taylor, Mike Yastrzemski, Donovan Solano, Alex Dickerson, or anyone else that were notoriously attributed to Farhan.

Clearly, he'll lose his mojo and never find another player hiding in some cave EVER again. What the Giants have now is all they'll ever have. Yaz and Solano until they stop hitting the cover off the ball. Then, we should just tear down Oracle Park, because what's the point?

Look, I get it, it's hard to think past the lotion, sock, and White Sox roster. You're pretty pre-occupied getting REALLY excited about your team. I don't blame you. Second place in an absolutely pathetic division is probably the most excitement you'll get in this lifetime.


14.) 07 Nov 2020 04:06:41
"Hahn has the benefit of a decade of having a putrid baseball team to have built off of. "

Hahn created his own benefit by (quite brilliantly) extending Sale, Quintana, and Eaton and then selling them at the peak of their values. He created a core - something Zaidi is still looking to do. Thinking that he can just pull a Max Muncy out of thin air is funny though. Even he would tell you the improbability of that consistently happening. He's a top-end baseball mind that still has a steep hill to climb and trust me, that's ok to admit, even as a Giants fan! It's something to get excited about. He wants the Giants to look like the current White Sox in 3-4 years.

"they weren't even a remotely decent team prior to those three years. "

This literally helps my point. He got a bad team (with little promise anywhere a team) back to the playoffs after just 3 seasons of his plan.

The Sox core isn't filled with a bunch of top-5 picks of their own like you're asserting. In no way is their team now a product of them being bad over the last decade, other than they fact that it finally convinced JR that a rebuild was necessary. What you're claiming is patently false. Leading up to the rebuild, the only draft pick they really hit on was Tim Anderson, where Hahn plucked him out of a no-name JUCO and now he's a superstar.

It's not going to kill you to give credit where credit's due. This team is loaded, but you're in denial.

I'll reserve the right to be excited about my team. Some of us haven't had the luxury of winning 3 rings in 6 years or whatever it was. But the current Giants fans are still in the "let's get giddy about the Luis Basabe acquisition" phase of the rebuild. Don't get ahead of yourself.

"Yaz and Solano until they stop hitting the cover off the ball. "

Funny how these 2 are immune from your favorite BABIP-regression argument when they are Giants players. Can Zaidi prevent that too? They're solid players, not franchise cornerstones. And again, won't be around when the Giants are good again.


15.) 07 Nov 2020 05:33:41
"Thinking that he can just pull a Max Muncy out of thin air is funny though"

I mean, he acquired Mike Yastrzemski for Tyler Herb. The point is, and it's sad that you have to have the point explained to you, since you're not intelligent enough to read it: Zaidi has a massive track record of finding nobodies and turning them into major contributors. If you think he'd admit he the "improbability" of that happening, then it's clear (it already was) you're not paying attention.

"This literally helps my point. He got a bad team (with little promise anywhere a team) back to the playoffs after just 3 seasons of his plan. "

No, once again, you missed the point (I'm sensing a theme) . The point was, he didn't do it in THREE years. He spent years with comically bad teams, which allowed him to make high draft picks. He also had zero incentive for years to keep anyone decent on his team, so he traded good MLB talent for good prospects. He did what any GM in his position has been capable of doing: trading good players off of his ridiculously awful teams.

The Giants, meanwhile, had something to play for. Maybe you'll get to experience it some day. But instead, the White Sox hire Tony La Russa. It's almost like they are trying to "intentionally lose" again? Maybe Rick Hahn can start another rebuild! Apparently, he's the greatest of all time at doing so.

Rick Hahn: Really good at rebuilding, not so good at getting his owner to listen to him. Your 2020 Executive of the Year!


16.) 07 Nov 2020 05:37:25
I'm not in denial about the White Sox talented team. It's no doubt they have a good core.

What I'm not giving you is the credit of a guy like Rick Hahn "building" anything. He got a lot of minor league depth for trading people like Chris Sale, Adam Eaton, and Jose Quintana.

Perhaps if Rick Hahn spent time building winning baseball teams, he wouldn't have needed to trade those guys.

The idea that they "intentionally lost" might be true, but they got to that point because they unintentionally lost, a lot.

So I guess I'll give Rick Hahn some credit: he found a way to make up for his team being so beyond putrid and laughable for years.

He fixed his unintentionally terrible baseball team by making an intentional terrible baseball team so he can get an okay baseball team that can't even win the worst division in baseball.


17.) 07 Nov 2020 05:58:02
And finally, I'm obviously facetious when I say the only good players the Giants had were Yaz and Solano.

Belt also put up MVP-caliber numbers. And with the hitting resurgence the Giants had all around (they went from a 83 wRC+ team to hitting 114 wRC+ as a team with new coaching), one should wonder how Buster Posey would have fared had he not opted out.

For as much as you hate that I refuse to give Rick Hahn credit, you're not giving Farhan Zaidi anywhere near the credit he deserves. He has taken a baseball team that, by every statistical indication, was not supposed to be good, and in a year—through finding the right coaching staff, instruction staff, scouting, player development, etc. —he has a really exciting Giants team.

His first two seasons were .475 and .488 teams. So your idea that it'll be 2024 before they have a winning record is beyond ridiculous.

And to think, Farhan hasn't had to make any sort of rebuild to get the Giants to a point where they can likely contend. He has, and will continue to make brilliant signings that work for the team.

It's not even the Solano/ Yaz guys. It's bench producers like Darin Ruf, who hit 141 wRC+ off the bench.

At a point, you have to acknowledge that this is just what Zaidi does. He finds valuable role-players, bench guys, and even MVP-caliber hitters that no one else values. He did it in Oakland. He did it in LA. And he's already doing it in San Francisco.

I guarantee you that the White Sox would fire Rick Hahn tomorrow for the chance at hiring a guy like Farhan Zaidi. Most teams would. The LA Dodgers winning the World Series was, in a significant way, the result of years of Zaidi's work in LA.

But because he's not with the White Sox, you haven't been paying a lick of attention to what he's ACTUALLY done and what the Giants outlook truly looks like.

Perhaps stick to discussing the White Sox. It's got to be rough being the 19th most popular pro sports team in Chicago, and probably the same rank in terms of success. But I'm sure Rick Hahn will make them the 18th best by the end of next year. I believe in him.


18.) 07 Nov 2020 06:07:52
And finally, it's cute you think anyone cares about Luis Basabe.

Most people didn't even recognize his existence until he showed up one day.

Perhaps you and Basabe have more in common than you thought.

Congrats, you have something in common with a Major Leaguer!


19.) 07 Nov 2020 16:05:04
The AL Central is not the worst division in baseball. It's better than the NL Central, AL West, and NL East easily. They didn't win the division in their 1st year of contending by like half a game. Boo hoo - they got a better 1st round matchup by not doing so FWIW.

And getting good prospects for your ML talent that actually turn out to be good is not easy to do, no matter how good the players you trade are. Hahn took Theo Epstein behind the woodshed with that Quintana deal.

"He spent years with comically bad teams, which allowed him to make high draft picks. "

Hahn did do it in 3 years. The Sale trade signified the start of the rebuild. Their current team is not benefitting from the fruit of pre- 2017 (as I've already said a couple times) other than Abreu and Anderson, who both are not products of previously bad teams. Sale was picked 13th overall, Eaton was acquired for Hector Santiago, Quintana was a minor league Rule 5 claim. Please read more carefully.

Hahn wanted to rebuild in 2011 when he first got the job. Jerry Rinesdorf is as stubborn as they come, that's not on Hahn. 3 years is all it took for Rick Hahn.

Every team in the thick of a rebuild says their team is "exciting". That's honestly a keyword. People loved saying the 2017 and 2018 White Sox were exciting. Everyone said "Ricky's boys don't quit! " as they watched 95-loss team.

Darin Ruff had 100 PAs man. Do you know how sample size works? You can't take every 2020 result at face value. But seriously, it's Darin freakin Ruff - c'mon. I'm talking about Lucas Giolito, Luis Robert, Eloy Jimenez, Yoan Moncada, Yasmani Grandal, Tim Anderson, Jose Abreu - and you're talking about 2 good months of Darin Ruf.

Please spare me.

The Giants literally employ Gabe Kapler, and you want to talk about TLR. Hahahahaha

For like the 1,000,000,000th time. Zaidi is good, actually very good. But so is Rick Hahn given where he has this orignization currently. Zaidi hasn't done it yet as the head honcho - Hahn has.


20.) 08 Nov 2020 03:50:56
LOL. Seeing as you're clueless about everything that doesn't involve the Chicago White Sox, it's not surprising you actually believe the narrative about Kapler.

Literally every accusation has been proven false, and the whole story was blown out of proportion.

The Giants, who exist in perhaps the most socially-conscious city in America, were not going to hire Kapler if there was even a remote chance of any of it being true. They weren't going to take that risk.

And every Giants beat writer, willing to give him a chance, dug deep into the situation and proved the narrative was ridiculous. Aside from him being a bit goofy and having some very bizarre idiosyncrasies, there's nothing concerning about Gabe Kapler.

Meanwhile, TLR has spoken poorly of kneeling for the anthem. His comments will not jibe well with a very diverse team. And Reinsdorf hired him knowing how out of touch, racist, and nonsensical La Russa became.

But please, unless you have information that no one in San Francisco has about the Kapler situation, write a blog and post the link. Otherwise, stick to making up surplus value numbers.


21.) 08 Nov 2020 04:03:54
And jesus, dude. Do you intentionally miss the point, or are you just completely inept at understanding basic details?

Darin Ruf was just another player in a long litany of guys that Farhan Zaidi finds who contribute. He was very, very good for the Giants, and he was a minor-league contract. There wasn't even the remotest of suggestion that Darin Ruf was going to be this long-term answer for the Giants.

Pointing out Darin Ruf was to continue to show that Zaidi can find players from darn near anywhere, plug them into the team, and get value.

Consider this: in just 100 PAs, Darin Ruf was 3.5 times more valuable than Nomar Mazara, and the Giants gave up nothing for Ruf.

So, the point with Ruf was that Zaidi doesn't need to rebuild to find talent. If he can find Darin Ruf and get him to hit 141 wRC+ in a season (by the way, the Giants as a team hit the snot out of the baseball in 2020), he can continue to just re-tool his team.

Once he gets some draft picks in (another area that Zaidi is notoriously excellent), he'll have a damn good baseball team. And I promise you, you'll be seeing the Giants contending well before 2024.


22.) 08 Nov 2020 04:42:19
And finally, no, the AL Central is the worst division in baseball.

The NL East won a playoff series. The AL West won a playoff series. The NL Central had 4 playoff teams.

The AL Central won one playoff game in 2020. In fact, the AL Central has won one playoff game in the past three years. Full transparency, that one win was the White Sox. Congrats!

In fact, it was a drought of 1,087 days between the AL Central winning a playoff game. For comparison sake, here's how many playoff games the other divisions won (from 10/ 06/ 2017 to 09/ 29/ 2020):

AL East: 29
AL West: 23
NL East: 17
NL Central: 13
NL West: 21

And the AL Central is currently in a drought of 1,480 days (over 4 years) since winning a playoff series. Since the Indians won their last game of the 2016 ALCS (10/ 19/ 2016), here's how many series the other divisions have won, including WC games:

AL East: 12
AL West: 7
NL East: 7
NL Central: 4
NL West: 12

And to make matters worse, EVERY division has won a World Series in that span.

The AL Central is, objectively, the worst division in baseball. They have not shown up in the playoffs (when it counts) . Compared to other divisions, they can't win playoff series, let alone playoff games against other divisions.

Long story short: the AL Central is beyond terrible. And frankly, if the Indians trade Lindor, and the Twins don't figure it out, it's only going to get worse.


23.) 08 Nov 2020 05:14:01
In fact, I had a lot of fun looking up these numbers, and if you're an AL Central fan, I'd stop reading now. Because it only gets worse.

Since 2016, EVERY division in baseball has a winning record against the AL Central.

AL Central vs. AL East- 301-349 (.463)
vs. AL West- 283-377 (.429)
vs. Interleague- 155-205 (.431)

So even if you want to exclude the playoffs, for whatever reason, they haven't even been remotely good against the other AL divisions or against the NL.

Again, they are OBJECTIVELY the worst division in baseball. And the more you look into the numbers, the more it proves that it's not even remotely close.

Being the best team in the AL Central is like being the smartest White Sox fan. It's impressive until you realize what you're actually working with.


24.) 08 Nov 2020 21:43:44
Fantastic little research project, but you're moving the goal posts once again. This is exhausting. No one cares about trends over the last 5 seasons. What on earth are you talking about? I'm talking about the divisions as they stand right now. Your angle on this is so incredibly stupid. The current AL Central is in no way worse than the NL Central, AL West, and especially not the NL East.

"The AL Central is, objectively, the worst division in baseball. They have not shown up in the playoffs (when it counts) . Compared to other divisions, they can't win playoff series, let alone playoff games against other divisions. "

This is simply not how you judge a division. I'll take a 6 month performance (or even 2-month performance this year) over a 4-game series to judge how good a team was in a given season. You have to perform in the playoffs to validate a good team for obvious reasons, but that has nothing to do with this argument. The quality of a division is measured when all teams are in play, not when half the league is eliminated.

The Indians are one of the best run organizations in baseball, the Tigers and Royals (who you could argue have better outlooks than the Giants if not for their spending capabilities) are on the rise, and the Twins are objectively a good team, they just can't figure it out in the postseason, which as a Sox fan, is hilarious. The Sox, if they go big game hunting (as being reported) for a Bauer, Springer, or Ozuna, will literally be one of the AL favorites, if not THE AL favorite. MISS ME WITH THAT.

If you watch TLR's intro press conference, he's changed his views on the social justice stuff, so who's the one that doesn't understand what's going on outside of their own city? TLR is literally in the hall of fame - a 3 time WS winner, and the Giants have Gabe Kapler, whose accomplished absolutely nothing. This is not good argument for you at all. But let's face it, you'll run with anything that pops into your head that kind of sounds good, no matter how nonsensical it actually is.

And please, please tell me you aren't considering Ruf's 100 PA's "a good season". He had a good month as the weak side of a platoon in a 60-game season. Your lack of common baseball knowledge is becoming more and more clear by every sentence you write.

But still, you're talking about Darin effing Ruf - I'm talking about MVPs, Gold glovers, silver sluggers, no-hitters and playoff baseball IN THE PRESENT for my team. But YAY! Darin Ruf! I remember those days.


25.) 09 Nov 2020 03:51:23
No one here is acting like Darin Ruf is some MVP candidate. Darin Ruf is one of those guys that represents what Farhan Zaidi does and the guys he looks for. He took a player whose last MLB season had a 48 wRC+. He took him, added him to the team and saw him out-perform Edwin Encarnacion, Danny Mendick, Nick Madrigal, and Nomar Mazara COMBINED. In fact, Ruf DOUBLED the WAR of FOUR guys on the World Series champion White Sox team. (Do you need reminded that the White Sox didn't even win their playoff series? )

So, the point being: Ruf, who hadn't played a game in the majors since 2016, returns with the Giants and hits 141 wRC+ off the bench. He probably would have started at 1B if the Giants didn't have a 1B who had a better season than every White Sox player not named Jose Abreu or Tim Anderson.

Darin Ruf represents the mentality Farhan Zaidi comes into the game with: Finding guys who cost literally nothing and getting them to contribute.

Think of it this way: Farhan got the following returns:

Mike Yastrzemski: 2.7 WAR on 210K
Donovan Solano: 0.9 WAR on 510K
Alex Dickerson: 0.9 WAR on 342K
Darin Ruf: 0.7 WAR on 200K

At $9M per WAR (which is probably low right now), that's a "surplus" of 45.5M. For a guy who needs a sock and kleenex over good "surplus value", you should probably get really giddy about what Zaidi finds.

And none of these were top prospects. None of them were acquired in a Chris Sale trade. None of them were top draft picks. Mike Yastrzemski was a 30-year-old in the worst organization's (Baltimore) minor-league system. Solano and Ruf were comically bad MLB players prior to SF. Dickerson missed all of 2017 and '18, and wasn't good at all in San Diego.

So, Darin Ruf represents what Zaidi is REALLY good at: finding comically terrible players and turning them into someone who presents his team with 6M+ in value, which is an insanely good return when you consider the financial state of baseball and the C.V..


26.) 09 Nov 2020 04:11:56
I'll settle this with this:

Rick Hahn is a GM who has built a team with elite prospects. Without those elite prospects, his teams were so laughably bad. The White Sox are expected to win a lot of baseball games with that roster.

Farhan Zaidi is a GM who has begun retooling a team with a bunch of players that were not good prior to coming to San Francisco. He was given a team with a lot of really bad contracts. He wasn't expected to win.

In fact, in almost every preseason projections, the Giants were projected with the worst record in the National League, and one of the worst in all of baseball. He finished 1 game below .500.

Considering what the Giants have in the pipeline, and his ability to over-achieve with guys that 99% of baseball fans haven't even heard of before they played in a Giants uniform and laughably bad castaways, to suggest it'll be 3-4 more years before the Giants are a .500 team (when they were a game below .500 in 2020) is ridiculous.


27.) 09 Nov 2020 05:08:54
"Rick Hahn is a GM who has built a team with elite prospects. Without those elite prospects, his teams were so laughably bad. The White Sox are expected to win a lot of baseball games with that roster. "

Huh? He built the roster. He gets the credit. So without a team's good players, they would be bad? Wow!

He had elite prospects because he acquired them in trades for very good (or elite) players that he drafted or acquired for nothing and then extended cheaply, therefore making them more valuable before finally trading them at their peak value leading into a rebuild. The was a fantastic blueprint, and it's why they're in such a desirable position currently. Young controlled talent that are all about to hit their primes at the same time prior to earning free agent money. I can 1000% guarantee you that Zaidi and his FO are trying execute this same objective as I type this.

So maybe that's not what Zaidi has done yet, but it's what he's looking to do, or at least should be. You have every right to get excited about Zaidi because it looks like the Giants hired the right guy who can make something out of nothing, but I'll keep saying that bashing Hahn, a guy whose success Zaidi is trying to emulate, is such an asinine hill to die on.

The problem with pointing out the surplus on Yaz, Solano, Dickerson, and Ruf is that when they provide that surplus to a .500 team, it's really almost meaningless. These 4 won't be nearly as good (if they're even still in the league) when the Giants field a playoff hopeful team again. Dickerson is 30, Ruf is 34, Yaz is 30, Solano is 32. The only way they provide long term value to the Giants is if they're traded. Otherwise, other than selling tickets for an otherwise abysmal team, they're meaningless.

Zaidi should trade all 4 while their stocks are as high as they'll ever be. Problem is - GMs can recognize clear regression candidates too.


28.) 09 Nov 2020 05:16:19
"The problem with pointing out the surplus on Yaz, Solano, Dickerson, and Ruf is that when they provide that surplus to a .500 team, it's really almost meaningless. "

It's nice that you finally have come around to agree that surplus value is meaningless.

Or is it only meaningful when you make up totally asinine numbers that benefit your White Sox?

Sorry, I'm having a hard time keeping up.


29.) 09 Nov 2020 06:11:25
"Hahn, a guy whose success Zaidi is trying to emulate"

What success has Rick Hahn had? His team was over .500 for the first time in like a decade, and even then, I didn't think we were counting things in a shortened season.

So once again, everything is irrelevant, unless it makes your White Sox look good and is convenient to your argument. Seriously, this is exhausting. And the fact that you can't even see how much you flip flop is problematic.

But in all honesty, what did Rick Hahn do that teams should want to emulate? He managed to take really good players and trade them for younger, also really good players? That's the innovative, revolutionary new wave of baseball that everyone should get on board with? Man, Aaron Sorkin REALLY wasted his movie on Billy Beane. He should have done one on Rick Hahn.

Rick Hahn isn't doing anything special. Again, he managed to get really good players in exchange for Sale, Eaton, and Quintana. Bad teams trade really good players for really good, but younger players all the time.

Hahn didn't even write that book, so we shouldn't say anyone doing what he's doing is somehow "emulating" his success. He's a copycat on his own accord, and has done nothing remarkable or innovative.

That's not saying Zaidi is needing to be emulated, as what he's doing is also being done in Tampa Bay and Los Angeles. It's no coincidence that both those teams were in the World Series or that Zaidi had a significant role in helping LA get there.

But if you ask which is more impressive, which do people pick?

A. Hahn acquiring Moncada, Jimenez, Giolito for REALLY, REALLY good players

OR

B. Zaidi getting Mike Yastrzemski and Donovan Solano for nothing.

It's no doubt they pick B. Outside of the few remaining Sox fans, everyone picks B. Teams will try to emulate option B over option A, because A costs something and B doesn't.

There are multiple ways to build a good baseball team. Rick Hahn has his way, guys like Friedman/ Neander/ Zaidi have theirs. Based on the two teams that just played in the World Series, and based on the recent GM hires of Houston, Boston, Baltimore, and likely several teams this winter, it's clear who teams and owners are wishing to emulate.


30.) 09 Nov 2020 06:20:38
"Zaidi should trade all 4 while their stocks are as high as they'll ever be. Problem is - GMs can recognize clear regression candidates too. "

Oh, now we're recognizing BABIP regression? I thought it wasn't a real thing. Or was that only because Avisail Garcia was a White Sox player at the time and it didn't suit your argument?

I'm not denying Solano and Yaz are bound for regression. But I find it odd that the Giants have "clear regression candidates" but you got in a massive tizzy when I suggested that Avisail Garcia would face serious regression after a season with a .392 BABIP (he did, and has never come close to those numbers since) .

So is regression a thing or is it not? Or does it just not affect the Chicago White Sox? (I'm really sensing a theme here) .


31.) 09 Nov 2020 14:01:02
"But if you ask which is more impressive, which do people pick?

A. Hahn acquiring Moncada, Jimenez, Giolito for REALLY, REALLY good players

OR

B. Zaidi getting Mike Yastrzemski and Donovan Solano for nothing.

It's no doubt they pick B. Outside of the few remaining Sox fans, everyone picks B. Teams will try to emulate option B over option A, because A costs something and B doesn't. "

Yeah, A does cost something - the stakes are a lot higher. If B doesn't work out, it doesn't matter. If A doesn't work out, it cripples the rebuild effort.

I get that you're trolling with an absolutely crazy statement like this. Yaz and Solano are not impacting their team in any meaningful way. Lucas Giolito is a bonafide ace pitcher on a good team. Getting Gio for Adam freakin Eaton alone is 1 billion times more impressive than Yaz and Solano.

And getting prospects that turn out to be good players is not easy at all, vent when you are trading really good players. Ask the Marlins about their return for Yelich, for instance. And still, no one would say Eaton was worth an ace pitcher, or Quintana was worth a .300/ 40HR hitter - but Hahn got it.

"Rick Hahn isn't doing anything special. Again, he managed to get really good players in exchange for Sale, Eaton, and Quintana. Bad teams trade really good players for really good, but younger players all the time. "

The part you're conveniently skipping is that the only reason why Hahn had the opportunity to get such good returns for those 3 is because he acquired them in the first place and had the foresight to extend them. It's not like he just inherited them. It's why they were so much more valuable - they provided immense surplus to 3 championship contending teams who were already spending a ton on money, and 2 of them won championships with those pieces as key cogs. That's the surplus value that matters.

On the contrary, I could also argue that the Mariners are getting (and will continue to get) great surplus value from Kyle Lewis, for example, even though they're not good yet. You know why? Because Lewis isn't an soon-to-be 35 year old first baseman. This context maters, and I never once said it didn't. Those 4 Giants players are only valuable to the Giants if they net long term pieces through trades and are playing for other teams. Otherwise, they are just tokens of Zaidi's success for you to gloat about.

You said a team would be in better shape paying Will Smith a $13.3M AAV then paying Bummer $3.2 AAV because the production would just be that much better - it's just another one of your takes to add to the list. Bummer is clearly the better player, and way more valuable at that.

I was telling you about Aaron Bummer's surplus value, who is young and is now providing surplus to a contending team. But what did Hahn do? He extended Bummer to get even more value from one of the best relievers in baseball for a $3.2M AAV. It's just smart stuff.

"What success has Rick Hahn had? His team was over .500 for the first time in like a decade, and even then, I didn't think we were counting things in a shortened season. "

It was an extremely successful season for his team in their 1st season post-rebuild. But honestly, all Hahn can do is build the team and help put them is situations fo succeed. They have one of the best rosters in baseball even before they fill their current holes this winter. That's success on Hahn's part. Amassing this core is no small feat. Add in the fact that it literally took 3 years and it's even more impressive.

What Hahn is doing is exactly what the Astros (well, wait a second), Cubs, Royals did. You know who is also trying to build a core like Hahn did (other than Zaidi)? Mike Elias. Click and Bloom are a little different because they're inheriting a post-championship rosters still filled with talent in their primes. They aren't doing a massive rebuild an time soon.

One last question - Does Hahn get no credit for the unsung heroes he found? Evan Marshall (who should have regressed hard according to you, how did that work out? Oh, he still has one of the best Changeups in baseball? ), James McCann, Tim Anderson, Matt Foster, Codi Heuer, Aaron Bummer, Garrett Crochet? As you ignorantly say that what Hahn is doing is "what every GM" does, Zaidi finding diamonds in the rough is not unique to him. But yeah, you'll tell me he does it more than anyone else.


32.) 10 Nov 2020 15:17:44
One last thought, the stakes you set, by giving Zaidi "three years" to be good because that's what it took Hahn, are patently absurd and ridiculous.

It didn't take Rick Hahn three seasons to put a good team on the field. It took him NINE. They had a winning season in 2012, during his first season as GM (of which I give him zero credit for), and not another until 2020. That's 9 seasons.

So, even if it takes Farhan Zaidi until 2024 to get the Giants a winning record, he's still 3 seasons ahead of Hahn's pace.

And spare us of the "they intentionally lost" for nine seasons. No, they didn't. They made big trades for players like Samardzija, Peavy, Frazier, etc. They were just bad at baseball for a long time.

So, giving Zaidi 3 years when Rick Hahn had 9 is absurd. But, it also reveals what you think about Zaidi: that's he's objectively better and should have higher standards. So, yeah, Zaidi should have the Giants with a winning record sooner than nine years into his stint as the Giant's President of Baseball Ops. If he can't do in 4 years what it took the inferior Richard Hahn to do in 9, then yeah, he was an abject failure for the Giants and they should move on.


33.) 10 Nov 2020 18:15:35
The rebuild started in the winter prior to the 2017 season, not in 2013. From 2013-2016, their owner refused to rebuild, something that Hahn wanted to do when he took over, as he has said. Not only did he refuse to rebuild, he refused to spend the amounts needed to overshadow how bad they were in player development.

As far as we know, the Giants have given Zaidi the latitude to execute his plan from day 1. Therefore, Zaidi's timeline and his process start prior to 2019, and Hahn's effectively started prior to the 2017 season. I never said they were losing on purpose for 9 years.

This is literally the third time I've explained this to you. It's not that hard of a concept to understand. Let's try and work on our reading comprehension.


34.) 10 Nov 2020 20:25:35
Okay, so let's get this straight, for four years, Rick Hahn wanted to rebuild, but his owner wouldn't let him and told him to win baseball games. And then, Jerry Reinsdorf wouldn't let him spend the money he needed in order to buy a ton of free agents.

So, for four years, what was Rick Hahn doing? If he's the master at getting surplus value, why wasn't he doing that? If he's so good at finding diamonds in the rough, why wasn't he doing that?

Rick Hahn can blame Reinsdorf all he wants for not being willing to let him do his thing, but good executives adapt and respond. Instead, Hahn's teams (of which he wasn't trying to intentionally lose) carried a .448 record from 2013-16.

If he has all these talents, and is so incredible as a GM, why wasn't he using those skills for four seasons?

He doesn't get to catch a break for those 4 seasons. He could have used his skills and adapted them to help him win games, and they lost. They lost a lot.

But this all falls in line with what you do: shift and mangle the argument so it's so fine-tuned that it can only fit the White Sox, and then routinely ignore and explain away anything that might be slightly inconvenient to the argument.

Just admit it: Rick Hahn is a middle-of-the-pack, run-of-the-mill GM who will benefits from having a woefully out of touch owner who wouldn't know contemporary baseball if it hit him in the face.

If Rick Hahn were the GM of ANY other team in baseball, he'd have been fired 4 years ago. But instead, he's got an owner who is hiring a racist, alcoholic manager and wondering why Phil Jackson isn't starting Dennis Rodman for tonight's game.


35.) 10 Nov 2020 20:29:32
Lastly, I do wonder how much credit Rick Hahn gets that actually should go to Kenny Williams. Reportedly, HE oversaw the Chris Sale trade, not Hahn. After all, Hahn reports to Williams, who reports to Reinsdorf.

Or let me put it this way: Zaidi and Hahn aren't even on the same page. Zaidi WAS a GM, and he was an incredibly successful GM in Los Angeles. Now, he's a President of Baseball Ops, and Scott Harris (who is a protege of Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer) is the GM.

Hahn doesn't even get to oversee an entire baseball organization. He gets to do all the tasks Williams and Reinsdorf tell him to do, and from what you've said, it doesn't sound like he has much of a say in what takes place.

Zaidi is calling the shots. Rick Hahn is a yes man. The two aren't even in the same league.

So, until Rick Hahn gets into the role Zaidi is currently, this conversation is over.


36.) 11 Nov 2020 02:44:17
"Lastly, I do wonder how much credit Rick Hahn gets that actually should go to Kenny Williams. Reportedly, HE oversaw the Chris Sale trade, not Hahn. After all, Hahn reports to Williams, who reports to Reinsdorf. "

This is just patently false.

Hahn oversaw the Sale trade. Alex Speier dedicates a whole chapter to this trade process in his book "Homegrown". Hahn and Dombrowski talked every day through the 2016 winter meetings. In fact, Hahn was pretty darn close to nabbing Devers as the third piece of that deal until, as Speier notes, Boston ownership turned Dombrowski down.

Not sure what your "reported" sources are.

Hahn is only under Williams as a formality, bc Rinesdorf felt too indebted to Kenny for bringing the White Sox their first championship in 88 years. This isn't confirmed, but rumor has it that they last time Kenny Williams had a considerable say in roster decisions was the James Shields trade - a guy that Kenny had coveted since his Kansas City days.

If Rick Hahn is "a middle-of-the-pack, run-of-the-mill GM", then he's just simply outperformed his perceived abilities by building the best young core in baseball. Label him whatever you want at this point. Run-of-the-mill GMs don't build this kind of core. But you know that; you know you're just hating at this point. Any rational baseball observer would recognize Hahn as doing an exceptional job over the past 4 years.

Also, the top level titles in each front office are different. Rick Hahn is the senior vice president/ GM - Kenny Williams is just a VP. Other teams have a baseball ops president and GM. It's not a meaningful disparity. Hahn and Zaidi are in fact on the same level. That's a characteristically petty argument. Hahn doing what Kenny Williams tells him is simply not true. Kenny Williams was the willful "yes man", not Hahn. Hahn does have to do what JR tells him, just like any other baseball ops employee does for any other owner in baseball.

"but good executives adapt and respond"

Now, Imagine you just built a great team of young players after a quick and uncharacteristic 3-year rebuild, you have most things go according to plan, and have built-in enough payroll flexibility to make some big-time FA signings to potentially contend for multiple championships over the next 5-7 seasons. The core is built, and its damn good. While he was fine through the rebuild, you let your AL manager of the year finalist go because he clearly wasn't the guy to stay with a competitive team. You have guys like Hinch, Cora, Bochy, Joe Espada, Sam Fuld, Matt Quatraro, etc. to interview - and yet your owner mandates that you hire his 76-year old drunken friend to manage the best team window the org has had in maybe 100 years. The fans hate it, your marketing dept. hates it, and the rest of the front office hates it - but it doesn't matter.

Does that put into perspective who Rick Hahn works under?

When you refuse to spend on free agents, spend money to buy into modern analytical efforts to develop talent, or give any international teenager 7-figure deals, it cripples virtually any hope you have of contending. You can find as many diamonds as you want, but when you don't have a good core that those diamonds merely supplement, they're meaningless, whether they're there or not. (i. e the 2020 Giants) That was the difference this time through. JR gave Hahn the keys to build a core his way and, well, here we are - a Trevor Bauer signing away from being the AL favorites.

"So, for four years, what was Rick Hahn doing? If he's the master at getting surplus value, why wasn't he doing that? If he's so good at finding diamonds in the rough, why wasn't he doing that? "

Uhhhhhhh, he pretty much was. Sale, Quintana and Eaton were cheaply extended - which is a big reason why they ended u getting the returns they did. He created a ton of surplus value just from those 3 extensions. But 3, or probably the 5 good player they had ain't getting you to the playoffs at that time.


37.) 15 Nov 2020 12:14:40
For what it's worth, there wasn't a chance the White Sox hired Bruce Bochy.

If he comes out of retirement, he's not moving away from the West Coast.

Besides, can you imagine Bochy, an incredible leader, wanting to work under a limp-wristed, panty-waisted GM whose superiors refuse to listen to him?

Let that sink in: Neither Jerry Reinsdorf nor Kenny Williams, from what you've said, trust Rick Hahn enough to value his input on things directly pertaining to his job.

I guess if Rick Hahn had a track record of being successful, and not one winning season in his tenure as the GM (and in a shortened season that apparently doesn't count, mind you), perhaps he'd be listened to and his input valued.

You can blame Reinsdorf all you want. But there was a zero percent chance someone like Bruce Bochy would have even thought about working for Hahn, a man he 100% would not respect.

Maybe some of those other guys would, but the only one even remotely successful had to employ the biggest cheating scandal in our game's history. Actually, it was the second. The first was a manager who allowed for steroids to be used without impunity on his team and just pretended it wasn't happening. I believe his name is Tony La Russa.

So the White Sox' only real options were a cheater and a cheater. And the White Sox got the racist, regressive cheater.

And I know what you'll say, "Reinsdorf didn't listen to Hahn! He did this on his own! " And if that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about Rick Hahn, then you're not being remotely objective about this. Reinsdorf doesn't listen to him because he's not worth listening to.

He's a run-of-a-mill GM who hasn't done a single thing that separates him from other executives in baseball. Until he does something worthy of being listened to, the White Sox leadership will continue to over-run him.

If nothing else, Rick Hahn just got a couple years worth of excuses for when La Russa stinks. And fans like you will lap it up like a dog on a hot day. But intelligent people will understand that it's 99% Rick Hahn's fault and still continue to recognize that he's really not that great of a GM.

I guess enjoy him until he gets replaced by Dave Dombrowski.


38.) 18 Nov 2020 00:47:12
Bochy, literally from his own mouth, said he'd consider the White Sox job if they reached out. You are, once again, objectively incorrect.

Hahn, in his post-season press conference, said that HE would be looking for a younger manager with recent postseason success. In TLR's intro-press conference, Hahn carefully said that "IT was determined that Tony was the best candidate, " not "WE determined that Tony was the best candidate. " He very clearly was not in favor of this decision.

"You can blame Reinsdorf all you want. "

Yes I, and the rest of the Chicago Bulls and White Sox fans, will continue to blame Jerry Reinsdorf. Again, did you watch The Last Dance? By your logic, Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson were no longer good at their jobs in the last 90s because Jerry Reinsdorf overruled what they wanted.

You saying that it should be Hahn's fault that Jerry doesn't trust him in regards to hiring a manager is such a crazy, idiotic take that I don't even know how to respond. Anyone that has payed attention to this realizes that JR fulled the rug out from under Hahn after he's built a championship-caliber team, which Jerry pretty clearly trusted him to do. But this version fits your narrative, so you're going to run with it.

There's nobody defending the TLR hiring, but there's also not many that attempt to carry as much water for Jerry Reinsdorf as you. He's an old bag that hired his good personal friend. He's an entitled billionaire who is used to getting what he wants. As he's now up in his 80s, he's probably more senile.

Hahn is one of the league's top executives (now being recognized by multiple sources) . I'm sorry that hurts you this much, but Zaidi flat-out aspires to get the Giants where the White Sox are currently. They're a Bauer/ Springer away from being the American League favorites.

Let that sink in.


39.) 18 Nov 2020 14:04:25
Good leaders don't get the rug pulled out from underneath them. Good leaders are trusted by their superiors. It's clear to anyone who has ever led anything that Hahn is not trusted by his superiors. That says more about Rick Hahn than it does Reinsdorf.

But we'll move on. Sorry I spoke poorly of your uncle Ricky. (Or, alternate theory: this IS Rick Hahn. That would explain a whole bunch) .

Look, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, Rick Hahn is a middle-of-the-road GM. And that's being really generous. While other organizations are hiring progressive, forward-thinking GMs and baseball executives, the White Sox are stuck with the guy who has put one winning team on the field in his nearly 10-year tenure in his job.

You can brag about the moves he's made all you want, but there's nothing about those moves that separate Rick Hahn from literally any other GM in the game. Nothing.

Rick Hahn benefitted from the fact that moving really good players had zero ramifications for his team. They were laughably bad at baseball (despite actually "trying" to win for years) . They are a bottom-5 franchise when it comes to attendance.

So in other words, they had no reason to keep those players and no fans would even notice they were gone.

So they turned a couple good baseball players into a couple good minor leaguers? And they did this because of how objectively terrible they were for nearly a decade. THIS is what Farhan Zaidi aspires to be? Lulz.

Again, if Farhan Zaidi is as bad in 2022 as Rick Hahn was in his first 4 years, then yes, the Giants should absolutely move on from him. But you and I both know he won't be. And you and I both know that the White Sox would fire Rick Hahn tomorrow to hire someone like Zaidi.

And we also know that Rick Hahn would resign tomorrow if Zaidi asked him to take a pay cut and become a scout.

Mostly because Rick Hahn can come see what a successful, well-ran organization looks like. And fans. He can see what it looks like to have fans in the stands.


40.) 18 Nov 2020 14:21:28
And to recap what I've said:

Good leaders find ways to win in spite of the challenges set before them. Bad leaders make excuses.

Farhan Zaidi took a really bad situation in San Francisco and has improved them remarkably in just 2 seasons. He didn't even have to trade a Chris Sale or Adam Eaton to do it. He approached a problem with innovative solutions and his team is better for it.

Meanwhile, according to you, Rick Hahn's teams were terrible not because of him, but because the owner wouldn't let him do his thing. So why not adapt? Why not change your approach? If Rick Hahn's only way to build a good baseball team is to sell off veterans for minor-leaguers, then I guess enjoy your window for 2 more years before he does it again with Giolito, Moncada and Jimenez.

If Rick Hahn is such a spectacular GM, he'll win IN SPITE of having Tony La Russa as a manager. And he would have won IN SPITE of Reinsdorf not allowing him to rebuild.

But you and I both know he's not a good GM, or a good leader.

With all that said, this conversation has gone hilariously long. I'll just wait for the end of 2021 after the White Sox finish third in the worst division in baseball. I'll wait for you to somehow excuse Rick Hahn yet again and blame the owner.

And it'll once again prove that Rick Hahn is an average GM who has done nothing remarkable in this world.

The more I think about it, when I say that, I think you just might be Rick Hahn. Hi Rick! Best of luck trying to beat a Francisco Lindor-less Indians team.


41.) 18 Nov 2020 15:27:15
The fact of the matter is, the Giants will be battling the Rockies for 4th place in the NL West and the White Sox will be battling for championships over the next 3 seasons. Epstein turned the Cubs around after 3 seasons, Luhnow turned the Astros around after 3 seasons, Hahn turned around the Sox after 3 seasons once he was given the keys. So, if Zaidi is so good, we better see them in the postseason by next year, because the proven, top executives in baseball can do it, no matter what they are "given".

"Farhan Zaidi took a really bad situation in San Francisco and has improved them remarkably in just 2 seasons. "

It has truly been remarkable to witness Zaidi take the Giants from a .451 winning% to a .483 team. Just historic. I wonder why he hasn't been getting and executive of the year award buzz?!?!?

And JR granting Hahn permission to start a rebuild is not my speculation, both Reinsdorf and Hahn have been quoted explaining this exact dynamic - how Hahn had been pushing for a tear-down since he was hired. As detrimental as Reinsdorf has been to the team progression over the last decade+, not many professional sports owners have 7 championship rings -- something that probably drove JR to be as stubborn as he has been.

The fact of the matter is currently, the Chicago White Sox are a good baseball team, and the San Francisco Giants are not. The Giants have no light at the end of the tunnel yet, and Hahn has the White Sox set up to win as well as anyone in baseball (other than the Dodgers. ) Putting all your ridiculous narratives aside, these are just the cold hard facts of the current situation for these 2 teams. I realize this may be tough to swallow given your constant struggle with interpret factual information.

"Good leaders don't get the rug pulled out from underneath them. Good leaders are trusted by their superiors. It's clear to anyone who has ever led anything that Hahn is not trusted by his superiors. That says more about Rick Hahn than it does Reinsdorf. "

Again, MJ must've not been a good player or leader. Phil Jackson must've not been a good coach/ leader with this logic. How inept can you possibly be with this insane narrative?

You known who is also getting the rugged pulled from underneath him, so he just decided to leave? Theo Epstein from Tom Ricketts. Owners have, and will always get in the way of smart baseball guys who know better than anyone how to build a good team.

"Rick Hahn benefitted from the fact that moving really good players had zero ramifications for his team"

Hmmm, I wonder how they got those really good players. It's almost as if when you have highly valued assets and you sell them at their highest point in exchange for promising assets that have yet to reach maturity, people consider than good business decision-making. What a concept!

"So they turned a couple good baseball players into a couple good minor leaguers? '

No, Rick Hahn turned a couple good baseball players into one of the best cores in baseball, helping to validate the blueprint that Zaidi is currently trying to emulate.

"If Rick Hahn is such a spectacular GM, he'll win IN SPITE of having Tony La Russa as a manager. "

The thing is, they will. They're stacked, Nate.


42.) 18 Nov 2020 16:23:17
You really got to appreciate the little caveat you threw in there, just so you could rope Rick Hahn with Luhnow and Epstein. There's a really, really good reason Reinsdorf didn't give Rick Hahn the keys to the car. And a good reason why he didn't involve him in the hiring of a manager. You know what that reason is, yet you refuse to accept it. It's okay to accept the truth, kiddo.

For what it's worth, Zaidi didn't inherit a team that had a ridiculous amount of prospect wealth like the Astros or Cubs. He inherited a team that his predecessor was emulating the 2020 Royals. There was next to no organizational depth, nothing decent on the roster. Nothing.

By every major publication, the Giants were projected as a bottom 3-4 team in baseball in 2019 AND 2020. And yet, in two years, Zaidi has had the Giants over-achieve those projections each year. He's quickly rebuilt the farm system and they sit 14th, which is a whole lot better than 29th, where they were at the start of 2019.

There's a significant amount of context surrounding the Giants situation, and it's clear you don't understand context, or basic details outside of that team wearing white and black. So I'm giving you a pass, more because you've shown you know literally zero things about the Giants situation.

Anyone watching the Giants thinking they'll be at battling the Rockies in 2020 isn't paying attention and is clearly trolling. The truth is, the Giants aren't a great team. No one here is suggesting the Giants will win the World Series in 2021. No one.

But here you are, thinking the White Sox will be competing with the Dodgers?

How about this, let's see the White Sox win a playoff series. Just one series. Then we can put them on the same page as the Dodgers. Kapeesh?


43.) 18 Nov 2020 16:45:32
And since you're so adamant on conveniently forgetting Rick Hahn's first 5 years as GM (I would too if I were a fan), we'll break it down this way:

From 2018-2020, after adjusting 2020 to a 162-game season, Rick Hahn's "first three seasons", here were his win totals:

2018- 62
2019- 72
2020- 95*

That's 229 wins, an average of 76 per season. Not too shabby for the first three seasons as the General Manager! (You realize how much of a joke it comes across when you make that standard, I hope) .

In his first two season, here is Farhan Zaidi's success:
2019- 77
2020- 78

In order to keep pace with Hahn, he needs to only have the Giants win 74 games. In other words, Farhan Zaidi could have a WORSE season and still be better in his first 3 years than Rick Hahn in the outlandish standard you created.

And to make it better for Zaidi, he didn't get Yoan Moncada, Jose Abreu, Tim Anderson, Luis Robert, Eloy Jimenez, Lucas Giolito. He's doing it with Mike Yastrzemski, Donovan Solano, Alex Dickerson, Kevin Gausman.

Zaidi also did this while winning around 8-10 wins MORE than the Giants were projected in each of the last two seasons. He did this all the while shaving a bloated payroll, rebuilding a laughably bad farm system, hiring a new manager, coaching, and instructional staff—all of which are paying immediate dividends.

Hahn had 8 years to build his organizational infrastructure. 8 years to hire top notch scouts, farm directors, instructional staff, R&D department folks. He may not have been able to make the player moves at the MLB level, but there were other things he had plenty of time to do, all of which play into the 2020 season. Mind you, that's the ONLY winning season he's had.

Does the shortened season count? Or does it only count for Chicago? You change it so much it's difficult to keep up.

So, considering all of that, it took Rick Hahn 4 years to win as many games as Zaidi's team won in Year 1. And I'd argue the White Sox teams from 2013-2017 were better rosters than the Giants teams the past two seasons.

Oh, sorry, those early years don't count, because they don't conveniently suit your argument. Pardon my using facts against your narrative.


44.) 18 Nov 2020 17:22:34
Finally, sorry, the quote you ended with was far too comical to let slide:

"Rick Hahn turned a couple good baseball players into one of the best cores in baseball, helping to validate the blueprint that Zaidi is currently trying to emulate. "

Gee, I didn't realize Rick Hahn created the standard that helped teams win almost every World Series for the last decade! By the looks of it, Rick Hahn should have kept this recipe for success to himself!

Obviously every GM in baseball is trying to build a solid, young, cheap core. Zaidi is currently doing that. He's acquiring young players and drafting players that will hopefully help them accomplish that. It might be a few years, but he'll have it, and probably sooner than you think.

I'll also tell you this much, there were rumblings that the Giants not trading Bumgarner last year was a decision that came from ownership. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. In any case, it shows how Zaidi adapted: he traded away Melancon, Dyson and Pomeranz instead. He found another way to improve his team and also value the owners' input.

According to you, it took Hahn 5-8 years to figure out how to win in spite of his tyrannical owner! It took Zaidi a couple of months to adapt to his ownership's demands.

And finally, you continue to miss the point about the ramifications issue. I made the point that Rick Hahn was able to make the decision to trade Sale, Quintana, and Eaton because it wasn't going to have any impact on anything. They were already an inept baseball team with those guys, so fans were used to it (the half dozen that still remained) . They had no need for those players.

It's easy to make decisions when there are zero alternatives and zero ramifications for said decisions.

Let's not pretend like Rick Hahn decided to trade Babe Ruth off the '27 Yankees. He traded Sale and Eaton off a team that was below .500 the season prior. He traded Quintana when his team had a .437 record and were 9 games back in July.

These aren't hard choices to make. Acting like Rick Hahn somehow re-invented the wheel by trading away good players off of a really, really bad team is overselling quite a bit.

Hahn, once again, is a run-of-the-mill GM who hasn't done anything innovative. He's a copycat GM.

I can't wait to see what excuses you make for when he's finishing third in the gauntlet we call the AL Central. You can celebrate finishing ahead of Kansas City, I guess.


45.) 18 Nov 2020 18:00:39
So, I’m a big Chicago sports fan. Here’s my take:


46.) 18 Nov 2020 18:54:56
"Gee, I didn't realize Rick Hahn created the standard that helped teams win almost every World Series for the last decade! By the looks of it, Rick Hahn should have kept this recipe for success to himself!

Acting like Rick Hahn somehow re-invented the wheel by trading away good players off of a really, really bad team is overselling quite a bit. "

Nope, never said that. Try to follow along. You love to twist words. He didn't' re-invent the wheel, he's just used it masterfully -- something that isn't easy for GMs. I never said that Hahn "created the standard", he just helped to validate it.

So let's get this straight - Hahn has successfully done what every GM tries to do, but most of the time can't ("trying to build a solid, young, cheap core. ") So you're saying that Zaidi is trying to -- emulate-- what Hahn (and others) have done. Exactly!

"He's acquiring young players and drafting players that will hopefully help them accomplish that. It might be a few years, but he'll have it, and probably sooner than you think. "

That's the thing. Giants fans are in the "hoping" stage of their rebuild to try and establish a "solid, young, cheap" core. Hahn's work has already manifested into that exact kind of core. The Giants having a roster as good as the White Sox after Zaidi is done building is legitimately best case scenario. As we sit here 2 full seasons after Zaidi was hired, the Giants do not have a single, long term player who has shown anything significant in the major leagues. Slow down, cowboy.

Not. A. Single. Player.

"Does the shortened season count? Or does it only count for Chicago? You change it so much it's difficult to keep up. "

Yes it clearly does - it's valuable info. I never said it wasn't. What I did say what that throwing Darin Ruf's 100 PAs around as monumental evidence of Zaidi's successes in SF isn't a very good idea.

"Hahn, once again, is a run-of-the-mill GM who hasn't done anything innovative. He's a copycat GM. "

There's a couple of these in every one of your replies, but again, this is just patently false. Hahn has extended young players more than any GM in baseball, and it's worked masterfully for the organization. It helped them net their core, and now after extending those new players (some of which before even playing an MLB game), he has that good, young, cheap core you were talking about. Which other GMs were regularly doing that prior to Hahn? You're going to see a lot more pre-arb extensions down the road because of what Hahn did with this White Sox roster.

"Rick Hahn was able to make the decision to trade Sale, Quintana, and Eaton because it wasn't going to have any impact on anything. "

What? It's one thing to decide to trade players - it's another thing to hit on ALL of your big deals and build a great team as a result. The impact of those deals, had he not netted the superstar players that he did in those deals, would have set the organization back another decade. Instead, he got a Cy-Young-candidate, ace pitcher (among other assets), for a guy that put up a total of 4.2-fWAR in his 4-year tenure with the Nationals. There were huge ramifications to those decisions, and Hahn didn't screw it up at all. Jerry, realizing he isn't getting any younger, could have tried to spend his way out of the hole they were in, but they'd essentially be the current Giants. Instead, Hahn's direction has them where they currently are.

Finally, you throwing up past win totals, just as you did when attempting to grade divisional quality, doesn't help your argument against mine in the slightest bit. I don't care what Hahn's win totals were from 2017-2019, nor should you necessarily care about the last 2 seasons for the Giants (and likely the next 2-3) when the team is expected to be any good. In fact, what's better for a rebuilding club with no current young, established big leaguers -- a 62-win season, or a 78-win season? The former is the only correct answer, because it least it sets you up better to replenish your farm. No one cares about Zaidi "keeping pace with Hahn" in win totals over the 2 team's rebuilding phases.

You know what will be better to compare? The White Sox 2021-2025 wins to the Giants wins in the same time frame. That should be fine considering that the Giants aren't that far away from contention according to you, and that the vbest the Sox will do is 3rd place. Oh, but you'll say that the Zaidi wasn't blessed with the same kind of talent to trade as Hahn was leading into his rebuild, so he should be granted more time for his moves to manifest.

But consider also:

"Good leaders find ways to win in spite of the challenges set before them. Bad leaders make excuses. "

You can't have it both ways.


 

 

22 Oct 2020 22:42:46
Some winter Trades:

#1

Mets get: Francisco Lindor
Indians get: Brandon Nimmo (OF), Andres Gimenez (SS), Matthew Allan (RHP), Ryley Gilliam (RHP) .

#2

Angels: Joe Musgrove
Pirates: Brandon Marsh (OF), Patrick Sandoval (LHP), Chris Rodriguez (RHP)

#3

Braves: Nolan Arenado (3B), Mychal Givens (RHP)
Rockies: Touki Toussaint (RHP), Drew Waters (OF), Adam Duvall (OF), Brooks WIlson (RHP) .

#4

Phillies: Gary Sanchez (C), Jordan Montgomery (LHP)
Yankees: Zach Eflin (RHP)

#5

Diamondbacks: Whit Merrifield
Royals: Jon Duplantier (RHP), Alek Thomas (OF), Josh Green (RHP)

#6

Brewers: Lance Lynn (RHP)
Rangers: Mario Feliciano (C), Aaron Ashby (LHP)

#7

White Sox: Josh Hader (LHP)
Brewers: Andrew Vaughn (1B), Konnor Pilkington (LHP), Tyler Johnson (RHP)


#8

Giants: Spencer Turnbull (RHP)
Tigers: Alexander Canario (OF), Melvin Adon (RHP) .

natedog

1.) 23 Oct 2020 01:18:42
Some explanations:

1. The Mets are going to make a splash. A new owner is going to want to acquire one significant player, and BVW will absolutely pull the trigger on Lindor. This would get the Indians' attention and suits many of their immediate needs, with an arm to develop, which they like.

2. Might be a slight overpay from LA, but it'd make it easier for them getting Musgrove on a cheap salary.

3. Arenado's trade value will be difficult to track down. That contract is yucky and he'd be leaving Coors, but Atlanta isn't giving up pieces that would hurt them.

4. Eflin is criminally underrated, and it seems the Yankees have grown tired of Sanchez. Getting Sanchez back with Girardi in a weak catchers market would be a great move. Would the Phillies give up Eflin for Montgomery? That's the question.

5. Merrifield is wasting away on a bad Royals team. Getting Thomas as a future OF along with Duplaniter would help tremendously in KC.

6. Brewers need pitching and have some payroll to work with. He'd make sense in a competitive NL Central division.

7. I'm just trolling Chi Sox at this point. Hader is going to require a haul for Milwaukee to let him go, and while Vaughn is an obvious overpay, it's closer to what the Brewers would demand. (And frankly, if Vaughn weren't a White Sox prospect, Chi Sox wouldn't give two you-know-whats about him being involved) .

8. Turnbull is the kind of guy Zaidi has targeted since coming to San Francisco. Decent peripherals with two plus-pitches. Zaidi will probably find a way to get the Tigers to take two twinkies and a nutri-grain bar for him.


2.) 23 Oct 2020 05:03:18
No top-100 prospect for Evan Longoria this time through? Dang it.


3.) 23 Oct 2020 06:09:42
Also would be kinda interesting to see the White Sox with 3 of the top 5 left handed relief pitchers in MLB.

But I'll say what I've said a couple times on here - trade major pen pieces at the deadline, not in the offseason. You almost always get more.


4.) 23 Oct 2020 16:36:09
Giants, unlike the White Sox, have come to the new age of baseball. They no longer give up prospects like, say, Fernando Tatis, Jr. for guys like James Shields.

I wonder which existing GM did that?


5.) 23 Oct 2020 17:22:17
As far as that "top 100" prospect given up for Longoria is concerned, the guy has been cut by two teams and will likely be a AAAA guy in Boston until they need the roster spot.

The only relatively decent player given up in that trade was Stephen Woods, and even then, he's a 25-year-old in High-A that missed all of 2018 and, now, all of 2020.

For all the bad trades the old Giants regime made (McCutchen, Matt Moore), the Longoria one hasn't been that bad.

Now, if you want to talk about bad trades, we can talk about the Samardzija trade or the Todd Frazier trade. Bassitt, Semien, and Montas are all legitimately good MLB players.

I'm not sure White Sox fans should criticize any team about bad trades.


6.) 23 Oct 2020 18:32:54
You proposed the Giants get Duran from the Twins a couple months ago. It's hilarious to think you believe that the Longoria trade has been anything but a huge failure for the Giants, a theme that helping them quickly close their contention window. Longoria struggles to hit league average (if he's even on the field), but is still paid like a star. But kudos to them for moving on to Zaidi, who has done a nice job thus far.

Criticize Hahn all you want, but in the grand scheme he did an unreal job of extending Sale, Quintana, and Eaton at the perfect time and then trading them at the peak of their value - securing an ace, budding superstar third baseman, and perennial 40 HR, .300 hitter, not to mention the potential of Kopech, Dunning, and Cease. Not to mention inking Robert, finding Anderson out of a nowhere JUCO (he got killed initially for that pick), and the last 3 drafts that look pretty darn good. The Kuechel and Grandal signings are icing on the cake.

The Giants will be very lucky to be in that position after 3 years of their rebuild.


7.) 23 Oct 2020 19:10:04
Longoria, in the grand scheme of things, is a wash. He's not hurting the Giants financially. In fact, the Giants could cut Longoria and run 3B with a combo of Wilmer Flores and Donovan Solano, who they pay a combined total of less than 4M a year.

At the time of the trade, the Giants didn't have an MLB-ready 3B. The free agent options for 3B were:

-Mike Moustakas (came with a QO attached)
-Todd Frazier

That's it. Those are the only 3B who signed MLB deals that winter. So it was make a trade, or keep Pablo Sandoval as the 3B. They weren't doing either, so they made a trade. The only other 3B that was notably on the block was Chase Headley (go look how he did in 2018).

The trade wasn't popular, and it didn't make a lot of sense, considering the Giants giving up young talent for stars well past their prime, but again, the Giants actually fired their GM the next winter. They recognize they made a massive mistake.


8.) 23 Oct 2020 19:20:08
The Bobby Evans era in San Francisco was a failure of massive proportions, and the Giants are still paying the price.

But, to suggest it's going to be a long time before they are in the White Sox position shows your ignorance to what Zaidi has done.

Like he did time and time again in LA, Zaidi waved his magic wand and turned guys like Mike Yastrzemski, Donovan Solano, and Alex Dickerson from castaways into legit talents. Yaz has a surplus value of around 60M. Need you be reminded, Yaz played over 500 games in the Orioles minors and they never gave him a shot.

Between that and restocking with young talent overnight. And he did so with almost no consequence. He got Jordan Humphreys for Billy Hamilton. Basabe for cash (thanks Rick Hahn), Anthony Banda for cash. Daniel Robertson for cash. Will Wilson just by taking on Zack Cozart.

The Giants won't be contenders next year, but if you think they are a long way away, you're not paying attention.

The White Sox would gladly fire Rick Hahn to take someone with Farhan Zaidi's track record.


9.) 23 Oct 2020 20:04:34
Except, they don't have to. Hahn built an affordable AL force. Give credit where credit is due.

The best case scenario for the Giants is contending in 2023, and that's absolutely best case even with their spending capabilities.

You getting excited about those AAAA guys is cute though. I remember those days.

I also remember the days when you told me Luis Robert could never headline a Noah Syndergaard trade. Sheesh.


10.) 23 Oct 2020 20:18:12
"Longoria is not hurting the Giants financially".

Whoo boy.


11.) 23 Oct 2020 20:19:21
AAAA guys? Obviously, not all of the guys Zaidi acquired will amount to team contributors. But it's not like Zaidi doesn't have a track record of these kind of moves. Value-grabs on guys no one else wants.

It's almost like there's two teams in the World Series employing similar strategies. Interesting.

As far as the future is concerned, the Giants have legit talent coming up the pipeline soon. Ramos, Bishop, Canario, Hjelle, Corry, Wilson, etc. I'd imagine they'll even try to fast track Luciano. They'll have tons of money coming off the books after 2021 (Belt, Crawford, Cueto), and very well might clear at least one of those contracts before 2021 begins.

I'd place good money on the following bet: The Giants will ANOTHER win THREE World Series before the White Sox even win one.


12.) 23 Oct 2020 20:28:09
Also, as flattered as I am that you still reflect on conversations from two years ago, it's a little insane how much space I take up in that noggin of yours.

As much as you love to deny it, I seem to be on your mind a lot, as you reference me all the time.

In fact, it's pretty clear that you trying to bring up past conversations is evidence that you can't keep up in the current one, so your last-ditch effort is to pull whatever tricks you can to look correct.

You were wrong about the Longoria trade. It's okay. You should be used to it by now. It's probably time to head upstairs and get your dinner from mom. I hear it's your favorite: chicken nuggets and apple sauce. Enjoy.


13.) 23 Oct 2020 20:54:43
I reference you all the time? Who just posted a trade to "troll me"? We're trolling people now? And I'm the one getting dinner from mom?

You're willing to bet money that your team wins 3 titles before mine wins 1? And I'm the homer?

You just can't make this stuff up.


14.) 23 Oct 2020 22:43:16
How are them chicken nuggets tho?


15.) 23 Oct 2020 22:49:59
You've mentioned me in like 2-3 posts. You clearly recall, vividly, what comments I've made several years ago.

Meanwhile, I had to be reminded this website even existed still and then I showed up and was reminded of your existence.

I bet you're used to that by now.


16.) 24 Oct 2020 07:20:03
It's hard to forget you saying Robert couldn't headline a Syndergaard deal. He was like a 50-60th ranked prospect when he came over from Cuba, and you scoffed at me for asserting that he would be a top-5 prospect in a couple years.

Yet here we are. On a forum where we are supposed to discuss trades, he probably in the top-10 in the sport in trade value.

It was probably smart to make a new account and try to limit the trail of abhorrent takes that people can reference.


17.) 24 Oct 2020 15:38:41
Since it still exists for posterity sake, we can click on your profile observe some of your other gems.

-Rutherford, Adolfo, Henzman for Greinke, Peralta and 25M.

Looking at it now, you weren't even close. The Astros gave up far more for JUST Zack Greinke, not even adding in Peralta (who was almost a 4 win player when you tried adding him in) .

The White Sox gave up more for Nomar Mazara.

Speaking of Mazara, you did this one:

-Walker, Stiever, Johnson for Benintendi, Price and 21M.

They gave up Walker for Mazara, who is a worse player and has aa full season more of service time.

I'm not sure you get to criticize anyone's trade ideas.


18.) 24 Oct 2020 16:28:52
I'm flattered you find it important to remember me.

And no, since it's still up, I thought I'd remind you of the quote I made:

"That Robert is a top 10 prospect or not is irrelevant when I think the Mets will want even better players yet, prospects or not. "

Literally every indication at the time from beat writers and folks in the know suggested that the Mets were demanding two top 10 prospects for Syndergaard. This isn't even new information at this point.

So, for me to say that it would take more than Luis Robert to get Syndergaard at the time wasn't outrageous. It fit in with the reality of what the Mets were asking for.

They were also looking for MLB ready players. In the 2017-18 offseason, Robert wasn't near MLB-ready (he debuted this year) . In fact, none of the guys (Robert, Cease, Adams) were MLB-ready at the beginning of 2018. And in 2019, when he had less team control, the price never shifted, hence why he's still with the Mets.

You love to criticize my response, but you get absolutely triggered any time someone else isn't getting their rocks off to White Sox players. The truth is, your trade was bad. And you got called out for it.

But if any disagreement with your opinion makes you remember it for THREE YEARS (that was October of 2017), then maybe you need to quit thinking so highly of yourself.


19.) 24 Oct 2020 18:51:55
When has a team ever traded 2 top-10 prospects in the same deal? A team rarely even has 2 top-10 prospects. The Mets were not asking for that. The Sox didn't even get that for Sale. Trading Syndergaard would have signified a rebuild, therefore MLB-ready talent wouldn't have been necessary. He wasn't moved because they decided to not rebuild.

Still, this was your most recent deadline deal proposal. This site sees 25-player deals, the Yankees spending $700 million in an offseason, and then stuff like this. A Giants homer thinking that Evan Longoria is worth more than a bucket of balls and 2 fungo bats. But a top-100, stud pitching prospect from the Twins. But that's not even enough for you. They'd have to throw in a another solid, MLB-ready, top-20 org pitching prospect too. Just horrendous.

"Twins get: Evan Longoria, $20M
Giants get: Edwar Colina (RHP), Jhoan Duran (RHP)

Twins have one of the worst 3B situations - hitting a very nice 69 wRC+ from that position. Giants pay down some of that salary to get a better prospect (Duran) . "

The team literally had Josh Donaldson on a 4-year deal.

It's also funny that you think the Giants were "forced to make the deal for Longoria because of a lack of other options", so their only choice was to acquire a declining third baseman coming off a .730 OPS that was owed more than $80 million guaranteed. You're never forced to do something as dumb as that. They won't even get an average hitter after all is said and done. Even the magician Zaidi can't make that deal disappear, and neither can you

With the constraints they have, the Giants really bailed out the Rays and helped make it possible for them to contend here in the past couple of seasons.


20.) 25 Oct 2020 12:10:32
"When has a team ever traded 2 top-10 prospects in the same deal"

No one said it was a fair deal. But that's clearly what the Mets wanted. It's no surprise that no one paid the price, and it's evident the Mets didn't like the packages they got (Syndergaard is still a Met) .

As far as that Longo trade, let's talk about it. For starters, the Giants have already had success getting teams to take on bad deals. Zaidi got the Braves to take on all of Melancon's contract and give him a really good prospect (Tristan Beck, 40FV) .

So, it's not out of the question that he could potentially clear other bad contracts. Keep in mind, we're talking about the GM who saw value in Yaz, not the GM who couldn't see it in Tatis. So based on history, Zaidi has a track record of getting good deals. If you don't like it, fine. But you'd have called anyone crazy had they projected the Melancon deal.

Second, Donaldson missed all of August. As of the trade deadline, he hadn't played for a month. And on August 31st, the Twins 3B combined for 69+ wRC. In August, Longoria was hitting 125 wRC+.

Longoria wasn't owed more than "80M". As of September 1st, when he'd join the Twins, here's his salary breakdown:

Rest of 2020: 2.25M
2021: 18.67M
2022: 19.67M
2023: 5M Buyout

If you don't like the idea, that's fine. If you think it's egregious, that's fine. I don't. And it's grounded in reality. But that's my opinion. I'm willing to embrace it and defend it.


21.) 25 Oct 2020 12:13:30
Chi Sox,

I know it’s difficult for you to consider any thought except the crazy ones you think up instead of doing your multiplication tables, but you realize that it’s possible to consider, contextually, why a GM made a trade, right?

Evans made comments to dozens of outlets about the Longoria trade, all of which I summarized in these comments.

Much like there’s a context for why Rick Hahn gave away Tatis (and in effect, lost the White Sox nearly 200M in value) . He gave him up because he had no idea Tatis was any good; he thought a 34-year-old James Shields was valuable, and because he’s not a great GM.

It’s okay though. It really is. The White Sox have a bad GM. Just enjoy 2005 until it completely fades from the rear view mirror. It’s all you’re getting.

But it may help you a lot if you try to understand someone’s reasoning, and learn to cope when it doesn’t match your opinion.

These are things grown ups do.


22.) 25 Oct 2020 18:15:26
A bad GM. He has quite possibly built the best young core of players in baseball from scratch, and he's bad GM. Just funny. And that's even without Tatis, a trade that no one here is defending.

You have to still be trolling. Zaidi hasn't accomplished a darn thing yet, and will likely be looking up at San Diego and LA for the next 3-5 years minimum. If he was smart, he'd trade Yaz because the next time the Giants are relevant, he won't be any good. He's already a 30 year old corner OF. He could ask Hahn for advice on how to trade good players at the top of their value and securing top-end returns.

Longoria was owed more than $80M when the Giants acquired him. But he's still signed through 2022. So why would the Twins want 2 declining third baseman signed to big AAVs? Longoria is in no way shape or form an upgrade to Donaldson. It doesn't matter what Donaldson was hitting at the time. Just admit that trade was really, really bad.

And newsflash, a 40 FV prospect is not "really good". Beck was only the return because Melancon is still a solid pitcher. $40 is an average

Let me give you a dose of reality. No one (I repeat), NO ONE, is trading for Evan Longoria unless SF pay 98% of his owed money. He is not good at this point of his career. Most orgs have his skillset at their AAA-affiliate.


23.) 25 Oct 2020 18:15:49
Let's also try to stick to one account, ok?


 

 

 

natedog's talk posts with other poster's replies to natedog's talk posts

 

22 Oct 2020 22:41:13
Free Agent Predictions

-J. T. Realmuto- Mets. 5/ 85M.
-Trevor Bauer- Angels, 1/ 23M.
-Marcell Ozuna- Braves, 6/ 144M
-George Springer- Astros, 7/ 165M
-Nick Castellanos (Opts Out) - Phillies, 5/ 100M
-Marcus Semien-Athletics, 3/ 36M
-DJ LeMahieu- Yankees, 3/ 45M
-Marcus Stroman- Yankees, 2/ 34M
-Didi Gregorius- Angels, 3/ 42M
-Masahiro Tanaka- Twins, 4/ 54M
-Liam Hendriks- Giants, 3/ 21M
-Jake Odorizzi- Cardials, 4/ 60M
-Shane Greene- Blue Jays, 2/ 16M
-Alex Colome- White Sox, 1/ 8M
-Blake Treinen- Astros, 2/ 15M
-Taijuan Walker- Phillies, 4/ 48M
-Jose Quintana- Marlins, 3/ 39M
-Nelson Cruz- Twins, 1/ 12.5M
-James Paxton- Blue Jays, 2/ 28M
-Michael Brantley- Indians, 3/ 39M.

natedog

1.) 25 Oct 2020 03:47:16
So you think there won't be much financial effect on this years FA market? I sure hope so. My thoughts:

1. Someone will give Colome 2 years

2. I think 3 years to Brantley is a bad idea for who ever would do it

3. Tanaka ain't leaving NY imo

4. Bauer gets a lot more on a 1-year deal

5. Castellanos, who just put up a league average offensive 60 games, is definitely not opting out, and if he did, he's not getting close to 9 figures.

6. Ozuna is not getting a 24 million AAV over 6 years. He's largely a DH.


2.) 25 Oct 2020 12:11:43
The Bauer deal is a tough one to pin down. If he’s truly unwilling to consider multi-year deals, he gives up a ton of leverage in negotiations.

Not to mention, his personality isn’t going to fly with a lot of managers, so he may be limited.

I personally think he’s not wise taking one year deals, but that’s the route he is choosing. I’m not convinced it’ll work out for him.


3.) 25 Oct 2020 12:12:58
The point about the financial market is definitely a fair one. And one to be considered. How much affect? We won’t know, so I went with what I thought they’d get in normal years.

A few other thoughts:

I agree that 3 years for Brantley is bad. But someone will probably do it.

Tanaka will follow the money, which I don’t think will come from NY. They have a lot of money on the books and more owed soon. Locking down a 32-year-old pitcher for 4 seasons is unwise.

The other points are fair too. I disagree with some, but it’s whatevs.


 

 

 

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02 Dec 2020 23:30:38
Every time I saw his name, I thought it was Erik Kratz. It's an easy mistake to make.

But I think it's actually more ironic than you're willing to admit (or, more realistically, than you're able to comprehend) .

Rick Hahn is taking a coach from the GM who is supposed to be emulating HIM, not the other way around. According to you, it should be the Giants who are hiring the White Sox coaches.

You don't find it a bit ironic that the World Champion White Sox are getting an assistant coach from the minor-league Giants?

I guess, considering the context of your recent comments about the Giants, and about Zaidi needing to emulate Hahn, I found it funny that Hahn hired a coach away from him, and, again, not the other way around.

FWIW, the ONLY reason Katz is going to Chicago is because he coached Giolito at Harvard-Westlake. Nepotism hires don't typically work out very well in baseball. But I expect the ever innovative Rick Hahn to make the most of the opportunity, just like he did from 2013-2017.

natedog

 

 

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02 Dec 2020 20:14:33
FWIW, taking several months off of work because of you divorced your spouse is not normal behavior. I won't pretend to know the circumstances, and won't buy into speculations about it. But that's not normal behavior, and is certainly indicative of larger issues.

As someone who has dealt with mental health issues in the past, I'll be the first to say that businesses, especially sports teams where guys are paid 6-8 figure salaries, are taking on guys who are total enigmas. If Kopech will opt out because he got divorced, what's next? His dog died, so now, no more baseball?

If that seems exaggerative, it's really not. People who fight depression and anxiety to those extremes are prone to being flighty at work. I know, because I was once there.

The point is, why would the Rays, or any team, pay top-shelf price for a pitcher with known issues, and ones where his own coaches (who know him pretty well) publicly express deep levels of concern for him?

It's foolish to brush the mental health issues aside and treat them like they don't matter. They do. Because the truth is, it won't matter if he can throw 101 if he's not on the field for whatever reason. And over the past 24 months, he's been off the field a whole heck of a lot more than he's been on it. And that'll concern GMs.

You never answered my question, either. Name me just one player who missed two years of minor-league development who came back and pitched like an "ace" for his career? By development, I mean a guy between the ages of 18-25, not someone like Rich Hill.

Just one player. I'm not sure you can find me one. Kopech's value is totally tanked. And if he can log 50+ innings and not get hit all over the yard, you should be VERY HAPPY. I'm not betting that'll happen.

Frankly, I think you've seen the best of Michael Kopech in baseball. I'll take that bet every day.

natedog

 

 

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02 Dec 2020 13:55:09
It's not bagging on a guy to state that he deals with mental health issues. It's an EXTREMELY relevant part of dealing with Kopech.

Look, Kopech needs to get the help he needs, clearly. And hopefully for his sake, 2020 was that chance. But his ability to hit 101 on the radar gun won't matter if he's unavailable to pitch because he's on the Restricted List or because his off-field problems lead to his unavailability in any capacity (i. e. 2020).

The Rays, or any team for that matter, aren't taking a guy who they don't even know if they can rely on to be on the field. It's one thing if the guy is battling injuries, it's another when it's emotional/ mental health issues, which point to a larger issue that is usually much more difficult to manage.

Have you ever hired anyone? Had to manage anyone dealing with mental health issues? Honestly. I have. I have them in my family. And they are as unreliable as it gets. That's not bagging on them, it's the truth.

If something as innocuous as getting a divorce is enough to force Kopech to take a break from baseball—while obviously it's better for him to take care of it—that's alarming to teams. And it's indicative of a player who, although very talented, will probably be limited by demons.

It's not knocking Kopech to mention this. And the TLR comment was pretty obviously to rag on the White Sox, who KNOWINGLY HIRED A GUY WITH DUI CHARGES to be their manager. It seems like they genuinely don't care about anything but trying to win (which is odd, because they also hired Tony La Russa) . People who hire guys like TLR have massive moral issues.

And, unfortunately, if the White Sox will overlook something as bad as a DUI, do you honestly think they are paying close enough attention to, or even care about, someone on their team who could be a serious problem down the road?

Doubt it.

Kopech's "value" is absolutely tied to his mental health issues. You can pretend it's not, you can act really offended by someone saying this, but it's 100% relevant and I guarantee the conversations among GMs in any trade discussion would be 10X harsher and less gracious than I'm being.

natedog

 

 

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02 Dec 2020 08:37:49
Honest question, Chi Sox, why does all of this bother you so much?

I'm just curious as to why you display such a level of vitriol for anyone who deviates from your opinion of them. Is there some sort of deep, personal connection to them that you get EXTREMELY OFFENDED when someone suggests that maybe they aren't as great as you think they are?

We've had lengthy conversations about silly topics, mostly involving the White Sox, and for the most part, I enjoy them. I really do. For as much as I enjoy getting you riled up, I also enjoy hearing your perspectives and learning a thing or two. If I didn't enjoy this, I wouldn't partake in it.

But there seems to be some elements here that show you're not able to be an adult about this. Again, it's not a character flaw if someone doesn't share the same 99th Percentile scouting report on Andrew Vaughn as you do.

You take it deeply personal. To the extent that you've made MULTIPLE posts calling me out, personally, because I dared disagree with you. They weren't even posts where you gloated, but instead, they were simply over differences of opinion.

If you find that one's character is in question because they disagree with your opinion, it may be time to re-evaluate your priorities and take some time off.

natedog

 

 

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01 Dec 2020 21:10:07
Also, I first thought it was an overpay. Then you explained to me how much of an underpay it truly was, and showed every reason why the Rays SHOULDN'T accept the deal.

So I began to look into Vaughn and Kopech a little closer. And the more I looked, the more I realized that the two—especially Kopech—aren't very good. It's okay to admit this. You won't get thrown out of Guaranteed Rate Field for admitting the truth. (They can't throw you out, otherwise they only have 14 people left in the stands. )

Kopech's mental health issues alone is going to raise serious red flags, and I'd imagine Boston's ownership is thrilled to let him be someone else's problem.

But if ever there was a fit for an over-rated, has-been prospect with known behavioral and mental health issues, the team that knowingly employed a 76-year-old man with active DUI charges against him seems like the PERFECT fit.

La Russa and Kopech were made for each other.

Anyhoo, enjoy Erik Katz as the pitching coach. Seems like Rick Hahn has to emulate Farhan Zaidi by hiring one of his coaches. Maybe he'll fix Kopech for y'all.

natedog

 

 

 

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