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06 Nov 2020 16:27:31
White Sox Offseason

- Sign Kevin Gausman - (3/$55 million)
- Sign Jose Quintana - (2/$26 million)
- Sign Robbie Grossman - (2/$16 million)
- Sign Sandy Leon - (1/$1 million)
- Sign Jarrod Dyson (MiLB deal)

- Extend Lucas Giolito (4/$48 million) + $17 million club option for 2025

- Trade Micker Adolfo & Andrew Dalquist to Pittsburgh for RHP Richard Rodriguez

$145 million payroll

Agree6 Disagree8

06 Nov 2020 17:34:25
Lineup vs RHP - Opening Day

Anderson - SS
Grandal - C
Abreu - 1B
Jimenez - LF
Moncada - 3B
Robert - CF
Grossman - RF
Madrigal - 2B
Collins - DH (Eventually Vaughn)

vs. LHP

Anderson - SS
Grandal - C
Abreu - 1B
Jimenez - DH
Moncada - 3B
Robert - CF
Grossman - RF
Engel - LF
Madrigal - 2B

Bench:

L. Garcia
Engel
2 of: Beckham, Mendick, Leon, Dyson

Rotation:

1. Giolito
2. Keuchel (L)
3. Gausman
4. Quintana (L)
5. Cease/ Dunning/ Kopech/ Lopez/ Lambert - Potentially Crochet by the end of the season

Bullpen:

Bummer (L)
Heuer
Foster
Marshall
Rodriguez
Fry (L)
Cordero
Lopez/ Crochet (L) / Cease/ Burdi/ Kopech.

07 Nov 2020 00:39:25
In all seriousness, considering Gausman's comments regarding his desire to stay in San Francisco, I would be massively surprised if he signs anywhere else.

But, if he does turn down the QO and leave San Francisco, 3/ 55 is a deal that would certainly make him feel better about the decision.

But when a player is that forthright about his desire to stay somewhere, and the team makes it clear they want him back, it's a safe bet to assume he goes back to that team.

07 Nov 2020 14:46:58
In all seriousness that's an overpay for Quintana. The guy has been worse since he got traded to the Cubs. The $13 million a year would be better suited else where.

If they are really wanting to bring him back. I'd say a 1/ $7 million with a 2nd year mutual option.

07 Nov 2020 15:35:37
Quintana will make more than 1/ 7, a lot more. I actually think Chi Sox might be trying to get Quintana on the cheap side. He'll likely aim for 3-4 years, and I think someone will give the years.

Quintana is still a very good pitcher, but he's certainly not what he once was. In a weak FA market, he'll have some competition to sign him.

11 Nov 2020 04:13:59
New question: how difficult will it be for Chicago to sign free agents? There will be, and already are, free agents who have publicly expressed concerns over the La Russa signing (Stroman) .

I'd imagine there are others who will choose to be more diplomatic and not publicize their disgust, but instead just not sign with them.

For as much as I enjoy harassing White Sox fans on here, the TLR signing is actually saddening. Knowing about his issues and just not caring should make people angry.

And if it causes one major free agent they target to refuse to sign there, fans have the right to be livid.

05 Nov 2020 17:35:58
Possible White Sox trades:

1. Trade Jonathan Stiever, Zack Burdi, and Adam Engel to Washington for Juan Soto.

Note: How could Washington not trade their over-rated OF for a bunch of hugely undervalued future superstars?

2. Trade Micker Adolfo and Jose Ruiz to Atlanta for Mike Soroka.

Note: Atlanta would be foolish not to take this. The out-of-options stars from Chicago carry way more surplus value than the ace who was only worth 0.3 WAR in 2020.

3. Trade Reynaldo Lopez to San Diego for Fernando Tatis, Jr.

Note: Tatis isn't very good. Why else did we trade him to San Diego for James Shields in the first place? So giving up Lopez is already a lot, but we feel generous giving up our stud pitcher for their backup SS.

Agree19 Disagree15

05 Nov 2020 19:53:20
Rent free.

05 Nov 2020 20:11:41
Okay fine. Nationals add Trea Turner.

I expect nothing less from the Sporting News Executive of the Year.

05 Nov 2020 20:22:08
I know you’re not used to people caring about what you say or paying attention to you, Chi Sox. So I get you being surprised.

I guess revel in it. Someone in this world finally cares about you. Congratulations!

05 Nov 2020 20:35:07
You always care what I say, it's not new. You have turned your presence on this forum solely paying attention to what I say (See: Nate's profile picture) .

It's cool to have a fan!

RENT FREE!

05 Nov 2020 20:58:31
I do find it funny that you immediately associate a post that is over-the-top, ridiculous, and absolutely not going to happen with yourself. No one mentioned you, but you knew it was about you.

I don’t know about you, but I call that progress.

06 Nov 2020 16:28:38
Right, I really went out on a limb guessing who this was targeted at.

07 Nov 2020 06:01:11
I guess that's fair. There's like 7 White Sox fans in America. And the other ones are busy doing something that will actually impact the world in a meaningful way.

So I guess it wasn't that difficult to narrow you down.

07 Nov 2020 14:54:25
I know this site is for trade ideas. Butttt you got a better change robbing a bank than the Padres just handing Tatis back to the White Sox for a pitcher that's a 4 starter at best right now.

I'd say Micker Adolfo and Jose Ruiz to Atlanta for Mike Soroka and Acuna.

07 Nov 2020 15:36:43
I'm taking the route of Chi Sox and making a totally unserious baseball trade idea.

It was obviously in jest.

07 Nov 2020 17:06:39
Rockies Offseason Needs
Trades:
Nolan Arenado and David Dahl to Rangers for Joey Gallo, Lance Lynn, and Jose Leclerc

Trevor Story to Dodgers for Max Muncy and Kenley Jansen

Ian Desmond to Indians for Zach Plesac

Signings:
Ozuna-2 Years, 40 million
Lemeheiu: 3 years, 75 million
Gregorius: 4 years, 32 million
Turner: 1 year, 7 million w/ 5 million Club Option 2022
Tanaka: 3 years, 18 million

Lineup:
CF Tapia
2B Lemeheiu
1B Muncy
RF Gallo
DH Ozuna
LF Blackmon
SS Gregorius
3B Turner
C Diaz

Bench:
INF Mcmahon
UTIL Hampson
OF Hilliard
C Wolters


Rotation:
German Marquez
Lance Lynn
Mashiro Tanaka
Kyle Freeland
Zach Plesac

Bullpen:
Long: Gray
Middle:
Jose Leclerc
Mychal Givens
Daniel Bard
Setup: Oberg
Closer: Jansen.

08 Nov 2020 18:55:56
Plesac ain't going no where and ESPECIALLY for that! .

03 Nov 2020 15:41:44
Giants Offseason Moves:

Free Agents
Gausman accepts QO 1/18.9M
Re-Sign Drew Smyly, 1/6M
Sign Jose Quintana, 2/18M
Sign Trevor May, 2/14M
Sign Dee Strange-Gordon, 1/5M
Sign Jason Castro, 1/4.5M

Trades:
Acquire Mike Tauchman from NY for 2 low-end prospects

Trade Johnny Cueto and 15M to Atlanta for Touki Toussaint and Viktor Vodnik.

Acquire Dexter Fowler & LHP Matthew Thompson for a PTBNL

Lineup (w/o a DH)
RF- Mike Yastrzemski
2B- Donovan Solano
LF- Alex Dickerson
C- Buster Posey
1B- Brandon Belt
3B- Evan Longoria
SS- Brandon Crawford
CF- Mauricio Dubon

Bench
C- Jason Castro
1B- Darin Ruf
2B- Wilmer Flores
2B- Dee Strange-Gordon
LF- Mike Tauchman

Rotation:
Kevin Gausman (R)
Jose Quintana (L)
Drew Smyly (L)
Tyler Anderson (L)
Logan Webb (R)

Bullpen
CL- Trevor May (R)
SU- Tyler Rogers (R)
SU- Jarlin Garcia (L)
RP- Reyes Moronta (R)
RP- Sam Coonrod (R)
RP- Caleb Baragar (L)
RP- Sam Selman (L)
RP- Touki Toussaint (R)

Agree18 Disagree5

03 Nov 2020 17:01:00
For clarification, the Giants give Dexter Fowler the Zack Cozart treatment and cut him after acquiring him from St. Louis. The prize is Matthew Thompson, who they get for taking on Fowler's contract.

05 Nov 2020 13:40:00
Also FWIW, it would behoove the Giants to trade Yaz pronto.

05 Nov 2020 15:59:11
The Yanks value Tauchman more than you do given that you feel you don't need to even name the 2 "low-end" prospects that Giants would trade. They were getting calls about him last off season and at the deadline and weren't willing to give him away. They like him more than Frazier, Gardner's future is uncertain, and Judge and Stanton are made of glass. He's still on a pre-arb deal for 2021!

I also doubt that any team is going to be taking on a lot of dead money this offseason, even the Giants.

You sure the Braves don't want Longoria for Ian Anderson? Their 3B-situation is uncertain!

05 Nov 2020 17:19:13
I'm sure the Giants will trade Evan Longoria for Brandon Nimmo. After all, according to you, Nimmo is a scrub and can be had for a bunch of prospects no one knows or cares about.

And based on Zaidi's outlooks, he's willing to consider taking on dead money again in 2021 if it brings back the right prospects. In fact, I'd bet teams will give up a lot more value this winter.

As far as Tauchmann, fair enough. He's a fourth outfielder who didn't hit at all in 2020. He's not a good defensive OF either. I guess if the Yankees think they have Judge and Stanton's replacement as a (checks notes) 79 wRC+ hitter, then Cashman is more regressive of a GM than Rick Hahn. And that's really saying something.

05 Nov 2020 17:29:46
I should make a correction to something I said earlier:

*Cashman is more regressive of a GM than The Defunct Sports Magazine's Executive of the Year Rick Hahn. And that's really saying something.

05 Nov 2020 18:07:41
And you're right the Giants should trade away Yaz.

How's this?
Jonathan Stiever, Zack Burdi, Adam Engel

FOR

Mike Yastrzemski

The White Sox get 70M in surplus value. The Giants get 2 dollars. I think it sounds fair.

Heck, the Giants will throw in Evan Longoria, Marco Luciano AND 14 billion dollars to make up for the awful surplus value he carries.

So, if you're keeping track at home, that's Stiever, Burdi, Engel for Yaz, Luciano, Longoria + 14B in cash.

What else should we expect from "Executive of the Year"?

05 Nov 2020 20:18:00
It's probably not wise to use a 111 PA sample from Tauchman in 2020 and then label him as that. It's honestly bad technique.

He was really good in an almost 300 PA sample (and a 2.6 fWAR! ) in 2019 when given more consistent playing time. He's actually a really good defensive OFer if you bother to look at relevant numbers. In 2019, he was in the 93rd percentile of all major league OFers in OAA and had 18 DRS. So, very, very good.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with that Yaz proposal (are you attempting to be funny? ), but we'll see if Zaidi is smart enough to sell him at his highest point. He can call Hahn for advice on how to do that and parlay those kinds of moves into an elite core.

Seems like you're mad Rick Hahn won an award for good work.

05 Nov 2020 20:34:18
I don’t care about Rick Hahn. Like you, he’ll leave this world being a vapor in the wind that no one remembers.

He won an award given out by a defunct magazine that was still third rate when it existed. It’s now a little worse than Bleacher Report. Good for him, I guess.

And the Yaz trade is a running series of me mocking you for that Nimmo trade. Every time you mention Longoria, I will insist Rick Hahn trades Jonathan Stiever for someone laughable.

I guess I figured that out of your arrogance, posting that Nimmo trade TWICE was something of a parody. I didn’t think someone so arrogant would actually think it’s a good trade idea. So I’ll join you in posting parody ideas.

Oh wait, you were serious? Yikes kid.

05 Nov 2020 20:54:39
I guess I can keep repeating myself in saying that Farhan Zaidi would be flat out ecstatic to have the San Francisco Giants in the position that the Chicago White Sox currently are in after 3-full rebuilding seasons. You denying that Hahn did a really nice job through the process is just funny. You'd think I'd be a Phillies fan or something.

Oh wait, he'd only has one more season to do that? Good luck.

I'd even give him an extra year. The Giants are looking at 2023 at the earliest, but likely 2024 until they are sniffing .500. But according to you Zaidi can pretty much turn water into wine, so maybe they'll win the World Series next year!

05 Nov 2020 22:32:17
Since 2019 (Zaidi's first season as Giants President of Baseball Ops), here are the records of the Giants and White Sox:

Giants: 106-116
White Sox: 107-114

The White Sox are 1.5 games better than the Giants since 2019. 1.5 GAMES!

So, that should tell you one of two things, you can pick:

1. The Giants are much better than you're giving them credit for. Zaidi's best two players have been Yaz and Solano, both of whom he got for nothing (Solano was a minor-league signing) .

2. The White Sox aren't as good as you think. IF the Giants are so bad, then the White Sox are barely better than them.

No matter how you spell it, Zaidi has done an absolutely tremendous job in 2 seasons (more like 1.5 seasons) in turning the Giants around, and has done so with players no one believed could win. He has a nearly identical record as the team with guys like Abreu, Robert, Anderson, Moncada, Giolito, etc.

So, either Rick Hahn has his teams vastly under-performing OR Farhan Zaidi is much betten than you're giving him credit for. Those are the only options you have now. After all, he's got an almost identical record to God, I mean, Rick Hahn.

05 Nov 2020 22:43:48
And the White Sox haven't been "rebuilding" for three seasons. They've been rebuilding for years. They've had nothing to play for. Meanwhile, the Giants won three World Series last decade. The White Sox, meanwhile, in that decade had TWO winning seasons and averaged 74 wins a season. It's easy to build a team when you're always in the Top 10 draft picks.

The Giants gave up major prospect capital (which happens when you try and win THREE World Series), rarely sat in the Top 10 draft picks, and fired their last GM for ruining the team.

And yet, in just two seasons, the White Sox, who have had every advantage in building a younger team, have just a 1.5 game lead over the Giants.

Please, continue to tell me how the Giants' window is still 4 seasons away?

06 Nov 2020 16:12:39
The Sox were losing games by design from 2017 - 2019. Those were their rebuilding years. I already explained to you the root of the struggles from 09'-16'.

Jerry. Rinesdorf. You can't not spend and subsequently not be able to develop players internally.

But we're talking about the teams in the present, not what they did over the last decade.

Comparing win-loss records, conveniently after a 60-game season, is such a bad argument, but I'm not surprised at all. I'm not arguing that the 2019 Sox were better than the 2019 Giants. No one cares about that. Stop moving the goal posts.

If you think the Giants will be anywhere close to the White Sox in the next 3-5 years, I feel really bad for the disappointment you are about to endure. The Sox are just scratching the surface with a team littered with silver sluggers, gold glove finalists, MVP-candidates, and top-prospects on the brink of promotion.

The Giants' best players are a 30 y/ o corner OFer and a 32 y/ o second baseman. After that, they don't have a single proven major leaguer. Belt and Dickerson (fine players) will both be gone, probably Solano too. Other than Bart, all of their top prospects have ETAs in 2022 or 2023, but they'll be ready to compete before 2024? Good luck. Luciano, Bishop, and Ramos better be extreme impact players from the moment they step on a major league field. The climb is still extremely uphill and Yaz/ Solano will be past their primes by the time they're ready to win. So we're really still talking about building an entire team because there is no guarantee with any prospects - especially those who haven't done much above high-A.

I've given credit to Zaidi. I've said he's done a nice job so far given what he was provided. But you trying to argue that Hahn doesn't have the White Sox exactly where Zaidi is trying to get the Giants is just a fool's errand.

06 Nov 2020 23:37:00
"Comparing win-loss records, conveniently after a 60-game season, is such a bad argument, but I'm not surprised at all. I'm not arguing that the 2019 Sox were better than the 2019 Giants. No one cares about that. Stop moving the goal posts. "

Says the child who moves the goal posts every other argument. You made up some arbitrary standard for Rick Hahn's "3-year rebuild", meanwhile, they weren't even a remotely decent team prior to those three years. Hahn has the benefit of a decade of having a putrid baseball team to have built off of.

You also created some silly standard saying the Giants won't sniff .500 until 2024, never mind they were close in both of the last two seasons, despite having only two "proven major leaguers".

And you're right, what the Giants have now is all they'll ever have. Farhan Zaidi doesn't have a remarkable track record of reviving careers of players nearly everywhere he's been. I mean, we probably should just ignore the resurgences of Justin Taylor, Max Muncy, Chris Taylor, Mike Yastrzemski, Donovan Solano, Alex Dickerson, or anyone else that were notoriously attributed to Farhan.

Clearly, he'll lose his mojo and never find another player hiding in some cave EVER again. What the Giants have now is all they'll ever have. Yaz and Solano until they stop hitting the cover off the ball. Then, we should just tear down Oracle Park, because what's the point?

Look, I get it, it's hard to think past the lotion, sock, and White Sox roster. You're pretty pre-occupied getting REALLY excited about your team. I don't blame you. Second place in an absolutely pathetic division is probably the most excitement you'll get in this lifetime.

07 Nov 2020 04:06:41
"Hahn has the benefit of a decade of having a putrid baseball team to have built off of. "

Hahn created his own benefit by (quite brilliantly) extending Sale, Quintana, and Eaton and then selling them at the peak of their values. He created a core - something Zaidi is still looking to do. Thinking that he can just pull a Max Muncy out of thin air is funny though. Even he would tell you the improbability of that consistently happening. He's a top-end baseball mind that still has a steep hill to climb and trust me, that's ok to admit, even as a Giants fan! It's something to get excited about. He wants the Giants to look like the current White Sox in 3-4 years.

"they weren't even a remotely decent team prior to those three years. "

This literally helps my point. He got a bad team (with little promise anywhere a team) back to the playoffs after just 3 seasons of his plan.

The Sox core isn't filled with a bunch of top-5 picks of their own like you're asserting. In no way is their team now a product of them being bad over the last decade, other than they fact that it finally convinced JR that a rebuild was necessary. What you're claiming is patently false. Leading up to the rebuild, the only draft pick they really hit on was Tim Anderson, where Hahn plucked him out of a no-name JUCO and now he's a superstar.

It's not going to kill you to give credit where credit's due. This team is loaded, but you're in denial.

I'll reserve the right to be excited about my team. Some of us haven't had the luxury of winning 3 rings in 6 years or whatever it was. But the current Giants fans are still in the "let's get giddy about the Luis Basabe acquisition" phase of the rebuild. Don't get ahead of yourself.

"Yaz and Solano until they stop hitting the cover off the ball. "

Funny how these 2 are immune from your favorite BABIP-regression argument when they are Giants players. Can Zaidi prevent that too? They're solid players, not franchise cornerstones. And again, won't be around when the Giants are good again.

07 Nov 2020 05:33:41
"Thinking that he can just pull a Max Muncy out of thin air is funny though"

I mean, he acquired Mike Yastrzemski for Tyler Herb. The point is, and it's sad that you have to have the point explained to you, since you're not intelligent enough to read it: Zaidi has a massive track record of finding nobodies and turning them into major contributors. If you think he'd admit he the "improbability" of that happening, then it's clear (it already was) you're not paying attention.

"This literally helps my point. He got a bad team (with little promise anywhere a team) back to the playoffs after just 3 seasons of his plan. "

No, once again, you missed the point (I'm sensing a theme) . The point was, he didn't do it in THREE years. He spent years with comically bad teams, which allowed him to make high draft picks. He also had zero incentive for years to keep anyone decent on his team, so he traded good MLB talent for good prospects. He did what any GM in his position has been capable of doing: trading good players off of his ridiculously awful teams.

The Giants, meanwhile, had something to play for. Maybe you'll get to experience it some day. But instead, the White Sox hire Tony La Russa. It's almost like they are trying to "intentionally lose" again? Maybe Rick Hahn can start another rebuild! Apparently, he's the greatest of all time at doing so.

Rick Hahn: Really good at rebuilding, not so good at getting his owner to listen to him. Your 2020 Executive of the Year!

07 Nov 2020 05:37:25
I'm not in denial about the White Sox talented team. It's no doubt they have a good core.

What I'm not giving you is the credit of a guy like Rick Hahn "building" anything. He got a lot of minor league depth for trading people like Chris Sale, Adam Eaton, and Jose Quintana.

Perhaps if Rick Hahn spent time building winning baseball teams, he wouldn't have needed to trade those guys.

The idea that they "intentionally lost" might be true, but they got to that point because they unintentionally lost, a lot.

So I guess I'll give Rick Hahn some credit: he found a way to make up for his team being so beyond putrid and laughable for years.

He fixed his unintentionally terrible baseball team by making an intentional terrible baseball team so he can get an okay baseball team that can't even win the worst division in baseball.

07 Nov 2020 05:58:02
And finally, I'm obviously facetious when I say the only good players the Giants had were Yaz and Solano.

Belt also put up MVP-caliber numbers. And with the hitting resurgence the Giants had all around (they went from a 83 wRC+ team to hitting 114 wRC+ as a team with new coaching), one should wonder how Buster Posey would have fared had he not opted out.

For as much as you hate that I refuse to give Rick Hahn credit, you're not giving Farhan Zaidi anywhere near the credit he deserves. He has taken a baseball team that, by every statistical indication, was not supposed to be good, and in a year—through finding the right coaching staff, instruction staff, scouting, player development, etc. —he has a really exciting Giants team.

His first two seasons were .475 and .488 teams. So your idea that it'll be 2024 before they have a winning record is beyond ridiculous.

And to think, Farhan hasn't had to make any sort of rebuild to get the Giants to a point where they can likely contend. He has, and will continue to make brilliant signings that work for the team.

It's not even the Solano/ Yaz guys. It's bench producers like Darin Ruf, who hit 141 wRC+ off the bench.

At a point, you have to acknowledge that this is just what Zaidi does. He finds valuable role-players, bench guys, and even MVP-caliber hitters that no one else values. He did it in Oakland. He did it in LA. And he's already doing it in San Francisco.

I guarantee you that the White Sox would fire Rick Hahn tomorrow for the chance at hiring a guy like Farhan Zaidi. Most teams would. The LA Dodgers winning the World Series was, in a significant way, the result of years of Zaidi's work in LA.

But because he's not with the White Sox, you haven't been paying a lick of attention to what he's ACTUALLY done and what the Giants outlook truly looks like.

Perhaps stick to discussing the White Sox. It's got to be rough being the 19th most popular pro sports team in Chicago, and probably the same rank in terms of success. But I'm sure Rick Hahn will make them the 18th best by the end of next year. I believe in him.

07 Nov 2020 06:07:52
And finally, it's cute you think anyone cares about Luis Basabe.

Most people didn't even recognize his existence until he showed up one day.

Perhaps you and Basabe have more in common than you thought.

Congrats, you have something in common with a Major Leaguer!

07 Nov 2020 16:05:04
The AL Central is not the worst division in baseball. It's better than the NL Central, AL West, and NL East easily. They didn't win the division in their 1st year of contending by like half a game. Boo hoo - they got a better 1st round matchup by not doing so FWIW.

And getting good prospects for your ML talent that actually turn out to be good is not easy to do, no matter how good the players you trade are. Hahn took Theo Epstein behind the woodshed with that Quintana deal.

"He spent years with comically bad teams, which allowed him to make high draft picks. "

Hahn did do it in 3 years. The Sale trade signified the start of the rebuild. Their current team is not benefitting from the fruit of pre- 2017 (as I've already said a couple times) other than Abreu and Anderson, who both are not products of previously bad teams. Sale was picked 13th overall, Eaton was acquired for Hector Santiago, Quintana was a minor league Rule 5 claim. Please read more carefully.

Hahn wanted to rebuild in 2011 when he first got the job. Jerry Rinesdorf is as stubborn as they come, that's not on Hahn. 3 years is all it took for Rick Hahn.

Every team in the thick of a rebuild says their team is "exciting". That's honestly a keyword. People loved saying the 2017 and 2018 White Sox were exciting. Everyone said "Ricky's boys don't quit! " as they watched 95-loss team.

Darin Ruff had 100 PAs man. Do you know how sample size works? You can't take every 2020 result at face value. But seriously, it's Darin freakin Ruff - c'mon. I'm talking about Lucas Giolito, Luis Robert, Eloy Jimenez, Yoan Moncada, Yasmani Grandal, Tim Anderson, Jose Abreu - and you're talking about 2 good months of Darin Ruf.

Please spare me.

The Giants literally employ Gabe Kapler, and you want to talk about TLR. Hahahahaha

For like the 1,000,000,000th time. Zaidi is good, actually very good. But so is Rick Hahn given where he has this orignization currently. Zaidi hasn't done it yet as the head honcho - Hahn has.

08 Nov 2020 03:50:56
LOL. Seeing as you're clueless about everything that doesn't involve the Chicago White Sox, it's not surprising you actually believe the narrative about Kapler.

Literally every accusation has been proven false, and the whole story was blown out of proportion.

The Giants, who exist in perhaps the most socially-conscious city in America, were not going to hire Kapler if there was even a remote chance of any of it being true. They weren't going to take that risk.

And every Giants beat writer, willing to give him a chance, dug deep into the situation and proved the narrative was ridiculous. Aside from him being a bit goofy and having some very bizarre idiosyncrasies, there's nothing concerning about Gabe Kapler.

Meanwhile, TLR has spoken poorly of kneeling for the anthem. His comments will not jibe well with a very diverse team. And Reinsdorf hired him knowing how out of touch, racist, and nonsensical La Russa became.

But please, unless you have information that no one in San Francisco has about the Kapler situation, write a blog and post the link. Otherwise, stick to making up surplus value numbers.

08 Nov 2020 04:03:54
And jesus, dude. Do you intentionally miss the point, or are you just completely inept at understanding basic details?

Darin Ruf was just another player in a long litany of guys that Farhan Zaidi finds who contribute. He was very, very good for the Giants, and he was a minor-league contract. There wasn't even the remotest of suggestion that Darin Ruf was going to be this long-term answer for the Giants.

Pointing out Darin Ruf was to continue to show that Zaidi can find players from darn near anywhere, plug them into the team, and get value.

Consider this: in just 100 PAs, Darin Ruf was 3.5 times more valuable than Nomar Mazara, and the Giants gave up nothing for Ruf.

So, the point with Ruf was that Zaidi doesn't need to rebuild to find talent. If he can find Darin Ruf and get him to hit 141 wRC+ in a season (by the way, the Giants as a team hit the snot out of the baseball in 2020), he can continue to just re-tool his team.

Once he gets some draft picks in (another area that Zaidi is notoriously excellent), he'll have a damn good baseball team. And I promise you, you'll be seeing the Giants contending well before 2024.

08 Nov 2020 04:42:19
And finally, no, the AL Central is the worst division in baseball.

The NL East won a playoff series. The AL West won a playoff series. The NL Central had 4 playoff teams.

The AL Central won one playoff game in 2020. In fact, the AL Central has won one playoff game in the past three years. Full transparency, that one win was the White Sox. Congrats!

In fact, it was a drought of 1,087 days between the AL Central winning a playoff game. For comparison sake, here's how many playoff games the other divisions won (from 10/ 06/ 2017 to 09/ 29/ 2020):

AL East: 29
AL West: 23
NL East: 17
NL Central: 13
NL West: 21

And the AL Central is currently in a drought of 1,480 days (over 4 years) since winning a playoff series. Since the Indians won their last game of the 2016 ALCS (10/ 19/ 2016), here's how many series the other divisions have won, including WC games:

AL East: 12
AL West: 7
NL East: 7
NL Central: 4
NL West: 12

And to make matters worse, EVERY division has won a World Series in that span.

The AL Central is, objectively, the worst division in baseball. They have not shown up in the playoffs (when it counts) . Compared to other divisions, they can't win playoff series, let alone playoff games against other divisions.

Long story short: the AL Central is beyond terrible. And frankly, if the Indians trade Lindor, and the Twins don't figure it out, it's only going to get worse.

08 Nov 2020 05:14:01
In fact, I had a lot of fun looking up these numbers, and if you're an AL Central fan, I'd stop reading now. Because it only gets worse.

Since 2016, EVERY division in baseball has a winning record against the AL Central.

AL Central vs. AL East- 301-349 (.463)
vs. AL West- 283-377 (.429)
vs. Interleague- 155-205 (.431)

So even if you want to exclude the playoffs, for whatever reason, they haven't even been remotely good against the other AL divisions or against the NL.

Again, they are OBJECTIVELY the worst division in baseball. And the more you look into the numbers, the more it proves that it's not even remotely close.

Being the best team in the AL Central is like being the smartest White Sox fan. It's impressive until you realize what you're actually working with.

08 Nov 2020 21:43:44
Fantastic little research project, but you're moving the goal posts once again. This is exhausting. No one cares about trends over the last 5 seasons. What on earth are you talking about? I'm talking about the divisions as they stand right now. Your angle on this is so incredibly stupid. The current AL Central is in no way worse than the NL Central, AL West, and especially not the NL East.

"The AL Central is, objectively, the worst division in baseball. They have not shown up in the playoffs (when it counts) . Compared to other divisions, they can't win playoff series, let alone playoff games against other divisions. "

This is simply not how you judge a division. I'll take a 6 month performance (or even 2-month performance this year) over a 4-game series to judge how good a team was in a given season. You have to perform in the playoffs to validate a good team for obvious reasons, but that has nothing to do with this argument. The quality of a division is measured when all teams are in play, not when half the league is eliminated.

The Indians are one of the best run organizations in baseball, the Tigers and Royals (who you could argue have better outlooks than the Giants if not for their spending capabilities) are on the rise, and the Twins are objectively a good team, they just can't figure it out in the postseason, which as a Sox fan, is hilarious. The Sox, if they go big game hunting (as being reported) for a Bauer, Springer, or Ozuna, will literally be one of the AL favorites, if not THE AL favorite. MISS ME WITH THAT.

If you watch TLR's intro press conference, he's changed his views on the social justice stuff, so who's the one that doesn't understand what's going on outside of their own city? TLR is literally in the hall of fame - a 3 time WS winner, and the Giants have Gabe Kapler, whose accomplished absolutely nothing. This is not good argument for you at all. But let's face it, you'll run with anything that pops into your head that kind of sounds good, no matter how nonsensical it actually is.

And please, please tell me you aren't considering Ruf's 100 PA's "a good season". He had a good month as the weak side of a platoon in a 60-game season. Your lack of common baseball knowledge is becoming more and more clear by every sentence you write.

But still, you're talking about Darin effing Ruf - I'm talking about MVPs, Gold glovers, silver sluggers, no-hitters and playoff baseball IN THE PRESENT for my team. But YAY! Darin Ruf! I remember those days.

09 Nov 2020 03:51:23
No one here is acting like Darin Ruf is some MVP candidate. Darin Ruf is one of those guys that represents what Farhan Zaidi does and the guys he looks for. He took a player whose last MLB season had a 48 wRC+. He took him, added him to the team and saw him out-perform Edwin Encarnacion, Danny Mendick, Nick Madrigal, and Nomar Mazara COMBINED. In fact, Ruf DOUBLED the WAR of FOUR guys on the World Series champion White Sox team. (Do you need reminded that the White Sox didn't even win their playoff series? )

So, the point being: Ruf, who hadn't played a game in the majors since 2016, returns with the Giants and hits 141 wRC+ off the bench. He probably would have started at 1B if the Giants didn't have a 1B who had a better season than every White Sox player not named Jose Abreu or Tim Anderson.

Darin Ruf represents the mentality Farhan Zaidi comes into the game with: Finding guys who cost literally nothing and getting them to contribute.

Think of it this way: Farhan got the following returns:

Mike Yastrzemski: 2.7 WAR on 210K
Donovan Solano: 0.9 WAR on 510K
Alex Dickerson: 0.9 WAR on 342K
Darin Ruf: 0.7 WAR on 200K

At $9M per WAR (which is probably low right now), that's a "surplus" of 45.5M. For a guy who needs a sock and kleenex over good "surplus value", you should probably get really giddy about what Zaidi finds.

And none of these were top prospects. None of them were acquired in a Chris Sale trade. None of them were top draft picks. Mike Yastrzemski was a 30-year-old in the worst organization's (Baltimore) minor-league system. Solano and Ruf were comically bad MLB players prior to SF. Dickerson missed all of 2017 and '18, and wasn't good at all in San Diego.

So, Darin Ruf represents what Zaidi is REALLY good at: finding comically terrible players and turning them into someone who presents his team with 6M+ in value, which is an insanely good return when you consider the financial state of baseball and the C.V..

09 Nov 2020 04:11:56
I'll settle this with this:

Rick Hahn is a GM who has built a team with elite prospects. Without those elite prospects, his teams were so laughably bad. The White Sox are expected to win a lot of baseball games with that roster.

Farhan Zaidi is a GM who has begun retooling a team with a bunch of players that were not good prior to coming to San Francisco. He was given a team with a lot of really bad contracts. He wasn't expected to win.

In fact, in almost every preseason projections, the Giants were projected with the worst record in the National League, and one of the worst in all of baseball. He finished 1 game below .500.

Considering what the Giants have in the pipeline, and his ability to over-achieve with guys that 99% of baseball fans haven't even heard of before they played in a Giants uniform and laughably bad castaways, to suggest it'll be 3-4 more years before the Giants are a .500 team (when they were a game below .500 in 2020) is ridiculous.

09 Nov 2020 05:08:54
"Rick Hahn is a GM who has built a team with elite prospects. Without those elite prospects, his teams were so laughably bad. The White Sox are expected to win a lot of baseball games with that roster. "

Huh? He built the roster. He gets the credit. So without a team's good players, they would be bad? Wow!

He had elite prospects because he acquired them in trades for very good (or elite) players that he drafted or acquired for nothing and then extended cheaply, therefore making them more valuable before finally trading them at their peak value leading into a rebuild. The was a fantastic blueprint, and it's why they're in such a desirable position currently. Young controlled talent that are all about to hit their primes at the same time prior to earning free agent money. I can 1000% guarantee you that Zaidi and his FO are trying execute this same objective as I type this.

So maybe that's not what Zaidi has done yet, but it's what he's looking to do, or at least should be. You have every right to get excited about Zaidi because it looks like the Giants hired the right guy who can make something out of nothing, but I'll keep saying that bashing Hahn, a guy whose success Zaidi is trying to emulate, is such an asinine hill to die on.

The problem with pointing out the surplus on Yaz, Solano, Dickerson, and Ruf is that when they provide that surplus to a .500 team, it's really almost meaningless. These 4 won't be nearly as good (if they're even still in the league) when the Giants field a playoff hopeful team again. Dickerson is 30, Ruf is 34, Yaz is 30, Solano is 32. The only way they provide long term value to the Giants is if they're traded. Otherwise, other than selling tickets for an otherwise abysmal team, they're meaningless.

Zaidi should trade all 4 while their stocks are as high as they'll ever be. Problem is - GMs can recognize clear regression candidates too.

09 Nov 2020 05:16:19
"The problem with pointing out the surplus on Yaz, Solano, Dickerson, and Ruf is that when they provide that surplus to a .500 team, it's really almost meaningless. "

It's nice that you finally have come around to agree that surplus value is meaningless.

Or is it only meaningful when you make up totally asinine numbers that benefit your White Sox?

Sorry, I'm having a hard time keeping up.

09 Nov 2020 06:11:25
"Hahn, a guy whose success Zaidi is trying to emulate"

What success has Rick Hahn had? His team was over .500 for the first time in like a decade, and even then, I didn't think we were counting things in a shortened season.

So once again, everything is irrelevant, unless it makes your White Sox look good and is convenient to your argument. Seriously, this is exhausting. And the fact that you can't even see how much you flip flop is problematic.

But in all honesty, what did Rick Hahn do that teams should want to emulate? He managed to take really good players and trade them for younger, also really good players? That's the innovative, revolutionary new wave of baseball that everyone should get on board with? Man, Aaron Sorkin REALLY wasted his movie on Billy Beane. He should have done one on Rick Hahn.

Rick Hahn isn't doing anything special. Again, he managed to get really good players in exchange for Sale, Eaton, and Quintana. Bad teams trade really good players for really good, but younger players all the time.

Hahn didn't even write that book, so we shouldn't say anyone doing what he's doing is somehow "emulating" his success. He's a copycat on his own accord, and has done nothing remarkable or innovative.

That's not saying Zaidi is needing to be emulated, as what he's doing is also being done in Tampa Bay and Los Angeles. It's no coincidence that both those teams were in the World Series or that Zaidi had a significant role in helping LA get there.

But if you ask which is more impressive, which do people pick?

A. Hahn acquiring Moncada, Jimenez, Giolito for REALLY, REALLY good players

OR

B. Zaidi getting Mike Yastrzemski and Donovan Solano for nothing.

It's no doubt they pick B. Outside of the few remaining Sox fans, everyone picks B. Teams will try to emulate option B over option A, because A costs something and B doesn't.

There are multiple ways to build a good baseball team. Rick Hahn has his way, guys like Friedman/ Neander/ Zaidi have theirs. Based on the two teams that just played in the World Series, and based on the recent GM hires of Houston, Boston, Baltimore, and likely several teams this winter, it's clear who teams and owners are wishing to emulate.

09 Nov 2020 06:20:38
"Zaidi should trade all 4 while their stocks are as high as they'll ever be. Problem is - GMs can recognize clear regression candidates too. "

Oh, now we're recognizing BABIP regression? I thought it wasn't a real thing. Or was that only because Avisail Garcia was a White Sox player at the time and it didn't suit your argument?

I'm not denying Solano and Yaz are bound for regression. But I find it odd that the Giants have "clear regression candidates" but you got in a massive tizzy when I suggested that Avisail Garcia would face serious regression after a season with a .392 BABIP (he did, and has never come close to those numbers since) .

So is regression a thing or is it not? Or does it just not affect the Chicago White Sox? (I'm really sensing a theme here) .

09 Nov 2020 14:01:02
"But if you ask which is more impressive, which do people pick?

A. Hahn acquiring Moncada, Jimenez, Giolito for REALLY, REALLY good players

OR

B. Zaidi getting Mike Yastrzemski and Donovan Solano for nothing.

It's no doubt they pick B. Outside of the few remaining Sox fans, everyone picks B. Teams will try to emulate option B over option A, because A costs something and B doesn't. "

Yeah, A does cost something - the stakes are a lot higher. If B doesn't work out, it doesn't matter. If A doesn't work out, it cripples the rebuild effort.

I get that you're trolling with an absolutely crazy statement like this. Yaz and Solano are not impacting their team in any meaningful way. Lucas Giolito is a bonafide ace pitcher on a good team. Getting Gio for Adam freakin Eaton alone is 1 billion times more impressive than Yaz and Solano.

And getting prospects that turn out to be good players is not easy at all, vent when you are trading really good players. Ask the Marlins about their return for Yelich, for instance. And still, no one would say Eaton was worth an ace pitcher, or Quintana was worth a .300/ 40HR hitter - but Hahn got it.

"Rick Hahn isn't doing anything special. Again, he managed to get really good players in exchange for Sale, Eaton, and Quintana. Bad teams trade really good players for really good, but younger players all the time. "

The part you're conveniently skipping is that the only reason why Hahn had the opportunity to get such good returns for those 3 is because he acquired them in the first place and had the foresight to extend them. It's not like he just inherited them. It's why they were so much more valuable - they provided immense surplus to 3 championship contending teams who were already spending a ton on money, and 2 of them won championships with those pieces as key cogs. That's the surplus value that matters.

On the contrary, I could also argue that the Mariners are getting (and will continue to get) great surplus value from Kyle Lewis, for example, even though they're not good yet. You know why? Because Lewis isn't an soon-to-be 35 year old first baseman. This context maters, and I never once said it didn't. Those 4 Giants players are only valuable to the Giants if they net long term pieces through trades and are playing for other teams. Otherwise, they are just tokens of Zaidi's success for you to gloat about.

You said a team would be in better shape paying Will Smith a $13.3M AAV then paying Bummer $3.2 AAV because the production would just be that much better - it's just another one of your takes to add to the list. Bummer is clearly the better player, and way more valuable at that.

I was telling you about Aaron Bummer's surplus value, who is young and is now providing surplus to a contending team. But what did Hahn do? He extended Bummer to get even more value from one of the best relievers in baseball for a $3.2M AAV. It's just smart stuff.

"What success has Rick Hahn had? His team was over .500 for the first time in like a decade, and even then, I didn't think we were counting things in a shortened season. "

It was an extremely successful season for his team in their 1st season post-rebuild. But honestly, all Hahn can do is build the team and help put them is situations fo succeed. They have one of the best rosters in baseball even before they fill their current holes this winter. That's success on Hahn's part. Amassing this core is no small feat. Add in the fact that it literally took 3 years and it's even more impressive.

What Hahn is doing is exactly what the Astros (well, wait a second), Cubs, Royals did. You know who is also trying to build a core like Hahn did (other than Zaidi)? Mike Elias. Click and Bloom are a little different because they're inheriting a post-championship rosters still filled with talent in their primes. They aren't doing a massive rebuild an time soon.

One last question - Does Hahn get no credit for the unsung heroes he found? Evan Marshall (who should have regressed hard according to you, how did that work out? Oh, he still has one of the best Changeups in baseball? ), James McCann, Tim Anderson, Matt Foster, Codi Heuer, Aaron Bummer, Garrett Crochet? As you ignorantly say that what Hahn is doing is "what every GM" does, Zaidi finding diamonds in the rough is not unique to him. But yeah, you'll tell me he does it more than anyone else.

10 Nov 2020 15:17:44
One last thought, the stakes you set, by giving Zaidi "three years" to be good because that's what it took Hahn, are patently absurd and ridiculous.

It didn't take Rick Hahn three seasons to put a good team on the field. It took him NINE. They had a winning season in 2012, during his first season as GM (of which I give him zero credit for), and not another until 2020. That's 9 seasons.

So, even if it takes Farhan Zaidi until 2024 to get the Giants a winning record, he's still 3 seasons ahead of Hahn's pace.

And spare us of the "they intentionally lost" for nine seasons. No, they didn't. They made big trades for players like Samardzija, Peavy, Frazier, etc. They were just bad at baseball for a long time.

So, giving Zaidi 3 years when Rick Hahn had 9 is absurd. But, it also reveals what you think about Zaidi: that's he's objectively better and should have higher standards. So, yeah, Zaidi should have the Giants with a winning record sooner than nine years into his stint as the Giant's President of Baseball Ops. If he can't do in 4 years what it took the inferior Richard Hahn to do in 9, then yeah, he was an abject failure for the Giants and they should move on.

10 Nov 2020 18:15:35
The rebuild started in the winter prior to the 2017 season, not in 2013. From 2013-2016, their owner refused to rebuild, something that Hahn wanted to do when he took over, as he has said. Not only did he refuse to rebuild, he refused to spend the amounts needed to overshadow how bad they were in player development.

As far as we know, the Giants have given Zaidi the latitude to execute his plan from day 1. Therefore, Zaidi's timeline and his process start prior to 2019, and Hahn's effectively started prior to the 2017 season. I never said they were losing on purpose for 9 years.

This is literally the third time I've explained this to you. It's not that hard of a concept to understand. Let's try and work on our reading comprehension.

10 Nov 2020 20:25:35
Okay, so let's get this straight, for four years, Rick Hahn wanted to rebuild, but his owner wouldn't let him and told him to win baseball games. And then, Jerry Reinsdorf wouldn't let him spend the money he needed in order to buy a ton of free agents.

So, for four years, what was Rick Hahn doing? If he's the master at getting surplus value, why wasn't he doing that? If he's so good at finding diamonds in the rough, why wasn't he doing that?

Rick Hahn can blame Reinsdorf all he wants for not being willing to let him do his thing, but good executives adapt and respond. Instead, Hahn's teams (of which he wasn't trying to intentionally lose) carried a .448 record from 2013-16.

If he has all these talents, and is so incredible as a GM, why wasn't he using those skills for four seasons?

He doesn't get to catch a break for those 4 seasons. He could have used his skills and adapted them to help him win games, and they lost. They lost a lot.

But this all falls in line with what you do: shift and mangle the argument so it's so fine-tuned that it can only fit the White Sox, and then routinely ignore and explain away anything that might be slightly inconvenient to the argument.

Just admit it: Rick Hahn is a middle-of-the-pack, run-of-the-mill GM who will benefits from having a woefully out of touch owner who wouldn't know contemporary baseball if it hit him in the face.

If Rick Hahn were the GM of ANY other team in baseball, he'd have been fired 4 years ago. But instead, he's got an owner who is hiring a racist, alcoholic manager and wondering why Phil Jackson isn't starting Dennis Rodman for tonight's game.

10 Nov 2020 20:29:32
Lastly, I do wonder how much credit Rick Hahn gets that actually should go to Kenny Williams. Reportedly, HE oversaw the Chris Sale trade, not Hahn. After all, Hahn reports to Williams, who reports to Reinsdorf.

Or let me put it this way: Zaidi and Hahn aren't even on the same page. Zaidi WAS a GM, and he was an incredibly successful GM in Los Angeles. Now, he's a President of Baseball Ops, and Scott Harris (who is a protege of Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer) is the GM.

Hahn doesn't even get to oversee an entire baseball organization. He gets to do all the tasks Williams and Reinsdorf tell him to do, and from what you've said, it doesn't sound like he has much of a say in what takes place.

Zaidi is calling the shots. Rick Hahn is a yes man. The two aren't even in the same league.

So, until Rick Hahn gets into the role Zaidi is currently, this conversation is over.

11 Nov 2020 02:44:17
"Lastly, I do wonder how much credit Rick Hahn gets that actually should go to Kenny Williams. Reportedly, HE oversaw the Chris Sale trade, not Hahn. After all, Hahn reports to Williams, who reports to Reinsdorf. "

This is just patently false.

Hahn oversaw the Sale trade. Alex Speier dedicates a whole chapter to this trade process in his book "Homegrown". Hahn and Dombrowski talked every day through the 2016 winter meetings. In fact, Hahn was pretty darn close to nabbing Devers as the third piece of that deal until, as Speier notes, Boston ownership turned Dombrowski down.

Not sure what your "reported" sources are.

Hahn is only under Williams as a formality, bc Rinesdorf felt too indebted to Kenny for bringing the White Sox their first championship in 88 years. This isn't confirmed, but rumor has it that they last time Kenny Williams had a considerable say in roster decisions was the James Shields trade - a guy that Kenny had coveted since his Kansas City days.

If Rick Hahn is "a middle-of-the-pack, run-of-the-mill GM", then he's just simply outperformed his perceived abilities by building the best young core in baseball. Label him whatever you want at this point. Run-of-the-mill GMs don't build this kind of core. But you know that; you know you're just hating at this point. Any rational baseball observer would recognize Hahn as doing an exceptional job over the past 4 years.

Also, the top level titles in each front office are different. Rick Hahn is the senior vice president/ GM - Kenny Williams is just a VP. Other teams have a baseball ops president and GM. It's not a meaningful disparity. Hahn and Zaidi are in fact on the same level. That's a characteristically petty argument. Hahn doing what Kenny Williams tells him is simply not true. Kenny Williams was the willful "yes man", not Hahn. Hahn does have to do what JR tells him, just like any other baseball ops employee does for any other owner in baseball.

"but good executives adapt and respond"

Now, Imagine you just built a great team of young players after a quick and uncharacteristic 3-year rebuild, you have most things go according to plan, and have built-in enough payroll flexibility to make some big-time FA signings to potentially contend for multiple championships over the next 5-7 seasons. The core is built, and its damn good. While he was fine through the rebuild, you let your AL manager of the year finalist go because he clearly wasn't the guy to stay with a competitive team. You have guys like Hinch, Cora, Bochy, Joe Espada, Sam Fuld, Matt Quatraro, etc. to interview - and yet your owner mandates that you hire his 76-year old drunken friend to manage the best team window the org has had in maybe 100 years. The fans hate it, your marketing dept. hates it, and the rest of the front office hates it - but it doesn't matter.

Does that put into perspective who Rick Hahn works under?

When you refuse to spend on free agents, spend money to buy into modern analytical efforts to develop talent, or give any international teenager 7-figure deals, it cripples virtually any hope you have of contending. You can find as many diamonds as you want, but when you don't have a good core that those diamonds merely supplement, they're meaningless, whether they're there or not. (i. e the 2020 Giants) That was the difference this time through. JR gave Hahn the keys to build a core his way and, well, here we are - a Trevor Bauer signing away from being the AL favorites.

"So, for four years, what was Rick Hahn doing? If he's the master at getting surplus value, why wasn't he doing that? If he's so good at finding diamonds in the rough, why wasn't he doing that? "

Uhhhhhhh, he pretty much was. Sale, Quintana and Eaton were cheaply extended - which is a big reason why they ended u getting the returns they did. He created a ton of surplus value just from those 3 extensions. But 3, or probably the 5 good player they had ain't getting you to the playoffs at that time.

15 Nov 2020 12:14:40
For what it's worth, there wasn't a chance the White Sox hired Bruce Bochy.

If he comes out of retirement, he's not moving away from the West Coast.

Besides, can you imagine Bochy, an incredible leader, wanting to work under a limp-wristed, panty-waisted GM whose superiors refuse to listen to him?

Let that sink in: Neither Jerry Reinsdorf nor Kenny Williams, from what you've said, trust Rick Hahn enough to value his input on things directly pertaining to his job.

I guess if Rick Hahn had a track record of being successful, and not one winning season in his tenure as the GM (and in a shortened season that apparently doesn't count, mind you), perhaps he'd be listened to and his input valued.

You can blame Reinsdorf all you want. But there was a zero percent chance someone like Bruce Bochy would have even thought about working for Hahn, a man he 100% would not respect.

Maybe some of those other guys would, but the only one even remotely successful had to employ the biggest cheating scandal in our game's history. Actually, it was the second. The first was a manager who allowed for steroids to be used without impunity on his team and just pretended it wasn't happening. I believe his name is Tony La Russa.

So the White Sox' only real options were a cheater and a cheater. And the White Sox got the racist, regressive cheater.

And I know what you'll say, "Reinsdorf didn't listen to Hahn! He did this on his own! " And if that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about Rick Hahn, then you're not being remotely objective about this. Reinsdorf doesn't listen to him because he's not worth listening to.

He's a run-of-a-mill GM who hasn't done a single thing that separates him from other executives in baseball. Until he does something worthy of being listened to, the White Sox leadership will continue to over-run him.

If nothing else, Rick Hahn just got a couple years worth of excuses for when La Russa stinks. And fans like you will lap it up like a dog on a hot day. But intelligent people will understand that it's 99% Rick Hahn's fault and still continue to recognize that he's really not that great of a GM.

I guess enjoy him until he gets replaced by Dave Dombrowski.

18 Nov 2020 00:47:12
Bochy, literally from his own mouth, said he'd consider the White Sox job if they reached out. You are, once again, objectively incorrect.

Hahn, in his post-season press conference, said that HE would be looking for a younger manager with recent postseason success. In TLR's intro-press conference, Hahn carefully said that "IT was determined that Tony was the best candidate, " not "WE determined that Tony was the best candidate. " He very clearly was not in favor of this decision.

"You can blame Reinsdorf all you want. "

Yes I, and the rest of the Chicago Bulls and White Sox fans, will continue to blame Jerry Reinsdorf. Again, did you watch The Last Dance? By your logic, Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson were no longer good at their jobs in the last 90s because Jerry Reinsdorf overruled what they wanted.

You saying that it should be Hahn's fault that Jerry doesn't trust him in regards to hiring a manager is such a crazy, idiotic take that I don't even know how to respond. Anyone that has payed attention to this realizes that JR fulled the rug out from under Hahn after he's built a championship-caliber team, which Jerry pretty clearly trusted him to do. But this version fits your narrative, so you're going to run with it.

There's nobody defending the TLR hiring, but there's also not many that attempt to carry as much water for Jerry Reinsdorf as you. He's an old bag that hired his good personal friend. He's an entitled billionaire who is used to getting what he wants. As he's now up in his 80s, he's probably more senile.

Hahn is one of the league's top executives (now being recognized by multiple sources) . I'm sorry that hurts you this much, but Zaidi flat-out aspires to get the Giants where the White Sox are currently. They're a Bauer/ Springer away from being the American League favorites.

Let that sink in.

18 Nov 2020 14:04:25
Good leaders don't get the rug pulled out from underneath them. Good leaders are trusted by their superiors. It's clear to anyone who has ever led anything that Hahn is not trusted by his superiors. That says more about Rick Hahn than it does Reinsdorf.

But we'll move on. Sorry I spoke poorly of your uncle Ricky. (Or, alternate theory: this IS Rick Hahn. That would explain a whole bunch) .

Look, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, Rick Hahn is a middle-of-the-road GM. And that's being really generous. While other organizations are hiring progressive, forward-thinking GMs and baseball executives, the White Sox are stuck with the guy who has put one winning team on the field in his nearly 10-year tenure in his job.

You can brag about the moves he's made all you want, but there's nothing about those moves that separate Rick Hahn from literally any other GM in the game. Nothing.

Rick Hahn benefitted from the fact that moving really good players had zero ramifications for his team. They were laughably bad at baseball (despite actually "trying" to win for years) . They are a bottom-5 franchise when it comes to attendance.

So in other words, they had no reason to keep those players and no fans would even notice they were gone.

So they turned a couple good baseball players into a couple good minor leaguers? And they did this because of how objectively terrible they were for nearly a decade. THIS is what Farhan Zaidi aspires to be? Lulz.

Again, if Farhan Zaidi is as bad in 2022 as Rick Hahn was in his first 4 years, then yes, the Giants should absolutely move on from him. But you and I both know he won't be. And you and I both know that the White Sox would fire Rick Hahn tomorrow to hire someone like Zaidi.

And we also know that Rick Hahn would resign tomorrow if Zaidi asked him to take a pay cut and become a scout.

Mostly because Rick Hahn can come see what a successful, well-ran organization looks like. And fans. He can see what it looks like to have fans in the stands.

18 Nov 2020 14:21:28
And to recap what I've said:

Good leaders find ways to win in spite of the challenges set before them. Bad leaders make excuses.

Farhan Zaidi took a really bad situation in San Francisco and has improved them remarkably in just 2 seasons. He didn't even have to trade a Chris Sale or Adam Eaton to do it. He approached a problem with innovative solutions and his team is better for it.

Meanwhile, according to you, Rick Hahn's teams were terrible not because of him, but because the owner wouldn't let him do his thing. So why not adapt? Why not change your approach? If Rick Hahn's only way to build a good baseball team is to sell off veterans for minor-leaguers, then I guess enjoy your window for 2 more years before he does it again with Giolito, Moncada and Jimenez.

If Rick Hahn is such a spectacular GM, he'll win IN SPITE of having Tony La Russa as a manager. And he would have won IN SPITE of Reinsdorf not allowing him to rebuild.

But you and I both know he's not a good GM, or a good leader.

With all that said, this conversation has gone hilariously long. I'll just wait for the end of 2021 after the White Sox finish third in the worst division in baseball. I'll wait for you to somehow excuse Rick Hahn yet again and blame the owner.

And it'll once again prove that Rick Hahn is an average GM who has done nothing remarkable in this world.

The more I think about it, when I say that, I think you just might be Rick Hahn. Hi Rick! Best of luck trying to beat a Francisco Lindor-less Indians team.

18 Nov 2020 15:27:15
The fact of the matter is, the Giants will be battling the Rockies for 4th place in the NL West and the White Sox will be battling for championships over the next 3 seasons. Epstein turned the Cubs around after 3 seasons, Luhnow turned the Astros around after 3 seasons, Hahn turned around the Sox after 3 seasons once he was given the keys. So, if Zaidi is so good, we better see them in the postseason by next year, because the proven, top executives in baseball can do it, no matter what they are "given".

"Farhan Zaidi took a really bad situation in San Francisco and has improved them remarkably in just 2 seasons. "

It has truly been remarkable to witness Zaidi take the Giants from a .451 winning% to a .483 team. Just historic. I wonder why he hasn't been getting and executive of the year award buzz?!?!?

And JR granting Hahn permission to start a rebuild is not my speculation, both Reinsdorf and Hahn have been quoted explaining this exact dynamic - how Hahn had been pushing for a tear-down since he was hired. As detrimental as Reinsdorf has been to the team progression over the last decade+, not many professional sports owners have 7 championship rings -- something that probably drove JR to be as stubborn as he has been.

The fact of the matter is currently, the Chicago White Sox are a good baseball team, and the San Francisco Giants are not. The Giants have no light at the end of the tunnel yet, and Hahn has the White Sox set up to win as well as anyone in baseball (other than the Dodgers. ) Putting all your ridiculous narratives aside, these are just the cold hard facts of the current situation for these 2 teams. I realize this may be tough to swallow given your constant struggle with interpret factual information.

"Good leaders don't get the rug pulled out from underneath them. Good leaders are trusted by their superiors. It's clear to anyone who has ever led anything that Hahn is not trusted by his superiors. That says more about Rick Hahn than it does Reinsdorf. "

Again, MJ must've not been a good player or leader. Phil Jackson must've not been a good coach/ leader with this logic. How inept can you possibly be with this insane narrative?

You known who is also getting the rugged pulled from underneath him, so he just decided to leave? Theo Epstein from Tom Ricketts. Owners have, and will always get in the way of smart baseball guys who know better than anyone how to build a good team.

"Rick Hahn benefitted from the fact that moving really good players had zero ramifications for his team"

Hmmm, I wonder how they got those really good players. It's almost as if when you have highly valued assets and you sell them at their highest point in exchange for promising assets that have yet to reach maturity, people consider than good business decision-making. What a concept!

"So they turned a couple good baseball players into a couple good minor leaguers? '

No, Rick Hahn turned a couple good baseball players into one of the best cores in baseball, helping to validate the blueprint that Zaidi is currently trying to emulate.

"If Rick Hahn is such a spectacular GM, he'll win IN SPITE of having Tony La Russa as a manager. "

The thing is, they will. They're stacked, Nate.

18 Nov 2020 16:23:17
You really got to appreciate the little caveat you threw in there, just so you could rope Rick Hahn with Luhnow and Epstein. There's a really, really good reason Reinsdorf didn't give Rick Hahn the keys to the car. And a good reason why he didn't involve him in the hiring of a manager. You know what that reason is, yet you refuse to accept it. It's okay to accept the truth, kiddo.

For what it's worth, Zaidi didn't inherit a team that had a ridiculous amount of prospect wealth like the Astros or Cubs. He inherited a team that his predecessor was emulating the 2020 Royals. There was next to no organizational depth, nothing decent on the roster. Nothing.

By every major publication, the Giants were projected as a bottom 3-4 team in baseball in 2019 AND 2020. And yet, in two years, Zaidi has had the Giants over-achieve those projections each year. He's quickly rebuilt the farm system and they sit 14th, which is a whole lot better than 29th, where they were at the start of 2019.

There's a significant amount of context surrounding the Giants situation, and it's clear you don't understand context, or basic details outside of that team wearing white and black. So I'm giving you a pass, more because you've shown you know literally zero things about the Giants situation.

Anyone watching the Giants thinking they'll be at battling the Rockies in 2020 isn't paying attention and is clearly trolling. The truth is, the Giants aren't a great team. No one here is suggesting the Giants will win the World Series in 2021. No one.

But here you are, thinking the White Sox will be competing with the Dodgers?

How about this, let's see the White Sox win a playoff series. Just one series. Then we can put them on the same page as the Dodgers. Kapeesh?

18 Nov 2020 16:45:32
And since you're so adamant on conveniently forgetting Rick Hahn's first 5 years as GM (I would too if I were a fan), we'll break it down this way:

From 2018-2020, after adjusting 2020 to a 162-game season, Rick Hahn's "first three seasons", here were his win totals:

2018- 62
2019- 72
2020- 95*

That's 229 wins, an average of 76 per season. Not too shabby for the first three seasons as the General Manager! (You realize how much of a joke it comes across when you make that standard, I hope) .

In his first two season, here is Farhan Zaidi's success:
2019- 77
2020- 78

In order to keep pace with Hahn, he needs to only have the Giants win 74 games. In other words, Farhan Zaidi could have a WORSE season and still be better in his first 3 years than Rick Hahn in the outlandish standard you created.

And to make it better for Zaidi, he didn't get Yoan Moncada, Jose Abreu, Tim Anderson, Luis Robert, Eloy Jimenez, Lucas Giolito. He's doing it with Mike Yastrzemski, Donovan Solano, Alex Dickerson, Kevin Gausman.

Zaidi also did this while winning around 8-10 wins MORE than the Giants were projected in each of the last two seasons. He did this all the while shaving a bloated payroll, rebuilding a laughably bad farm system, hiring a new manager, coaching, and instructional staff—all of which are paying immediate dividends.

Hahn had 8 years to build his organizational infrastructure. 8 years to hire top notch scouts, farm directors, instructional staff, R&D department folks. He may not have been able to make the player moves at the MLB level, but there were other things he had plenty of time to do, all of which play into the 2020 season. Mind you, that's the ONLY winning season he's had.

Does the shortened season count? Or does it only count for Chicago? You change it so much it's difficult to keep up.

So, considering all of that, it took Rick Hahn 4 years to win as many games as Zaidi's team won in Year 1. And I'd argue the White Sox teams from 2013-2017 were better rosters than the Giants teams the past two seasons.

Oh, sorry, those early years don't count, because they don't conveniently suit your argument. Pardon my using facts against your narrative.

18 Nov 2020 17:22:34
Finally, sorry, the quote you ended with was far too comical to let slide:

"Rick Hahn turned a couple good baseball players into one of the best cores in baseball, helping to validate the blueprint that Zaidi is currently trying to emulate. "

Gee, I didn't realize Rick Hahn created the standard that helped teams win almost every World Series for the last decade! By the looks of it, Rick Hahn should have kept this recipe for success to himself!

Obviously every GM in baseball is trying to build a solid, young, cheap core. Zaidi is currently doing that. He's acquiring young players and drafting players that will hopefully help them accomplish that. It might be a few years, but he'll have it, and probably sooner than you think.

I'll also tell you this much, there were rumblings that the Giants not trading Bumgarner last year was a decision that came from ownership. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. In any case, it shows how Zaidi adapted: he traded away Melancon, Dyson and Pomeranz instead. He found another way to improve his team and also value the owners' input.

According to you, it took Hahn 5-8 years to figure out how to win in spite of his tyrannical owner! It took Zaidi a couple of months to adapt to his ownership's demands.

And finally, you continue to miss the point about the ramifications issue. I made the point that Rick Hahn was able to make the decision to trade Sale, Quintana, and Eaton because it wasn't going to have any impact on anything. They were already an inept baseball team with those guys, so fans were used to it (the half dozen that still remained) . They had no need for those players.

It's easy to make decisions when there are zero alternatives and zero ramifications for said decisions.

Let's not pretend like Rick Hahn decided to trade Babe Ruth off the '27 Yankees. He traded Sale and Eaton off a team that was below .500 the season prior. He traded Quintana when his team had a .437 record and were 9 games back in July.

These aren't hard choices to make. Acting like Rick Hahn somehow re-invented the wheel by trading away good players off of a really, really bad team is overselling quite a bit.

Hahn, once again, is a run-of-the-mill GM who hasn't done anything innovative. He's a copycat GM.

I can't wait to see what excuses you make for when he's finishing third in the gauntlet we call the AL Central. You can celebrate finishing ahead of Kansas City, I guess.

18 Nov 2020 18:00:39
So, I’m a big Chicago sports fan. Here’s my take:

18 Nov 2020 18:54:56
"Gee, I didn't realize Rick Hahn created the standard that helped teams win almost every World Series for the last decade! By the looks of it, Rick Hahn should have kept this recipe for success to himself!

Acting like Rick Hahn somehow re-invented the wheel by trading away good players off of a really, really bad team is overselling quite a bit. "

Nope, never said that. Try to follow along. You love to twist words. He didn't' re-invent the wheel, he's just used it masterfully -- something that isn't easy for GMs. I never said that Hahn "created the standard", he just helped to validate it.

So let's get this straight - Hahn has successfully done what every GM tries to do, but most of the time can't ("trying to build a solid, young, cheap core. ") So you're saying that Zaidi is trying to -- emulate-- what Hahn (and others) have done. Exactly!

"He's acquiring young players and drafting players that will hopefully help them accomplish that. It might be a few years, but he'll have it, and probably sooner than you think. "

That's the thing. Giants fans are in the "hoping" stage of their rebuild to try and establish a "solid, young, cheap" core. Hahn's work has already manifested into that exact kind of core. The Giants having a roster as good as the White Sox after Zaidi is done building is legitimately best case scenario. As we sit here 2 full seasons after Zaidi was hired, the Giants do not have a single, long term player who has shown anything significant in the major leagues. Slow down, cowboy.

Not. A. Single. Player.

"Does the shortened season count? Or does it only count for Chicago? You change it so much it's difficult to keep up. "

Yes it clearly does - it's valuable info. I never said it wasn't. What I did say what that throwing Darin Ruf's 100 PAs around as monumental evidence of Zaidi's successes in SF isn't a very good idea.

"Hahn, once again, is a run-of-the-mill GM who hasn't done anything innovative. He's a copycat GM. "

There's a couple of these in every one of your replies, but again, this is just patently false. Hahn has extended young players more than any GM in baseball, and it's worked masterfully for the organization. It helped them net their core, and now after extending those new players (some of which before even playing an MLB game), he has that good, young, cheap core you were talking about. Which other GMs were regularly doing that prior to Hahn? You're going to see a lot more pre-arb extensions down the road because of what Hahn did with this White Sox roster.

"Rick Hahn was able to make the decision to trade Sale, Quintana, and Eaton because it wasn't going to have any impact on anything. "

What? It's one thing to decide to trade players - it's another thing to hit on ALL of your big deals and build a great team as a result. The impact of those deals, had he not netted the superstar players that he did in those deals, would have set the organization back another decade. Instead, he got a Cy-Young-candidate, ace pitcher (among other assets), for a guy that put up a total of 4.2-fWAR in his 4-year tenure with the Nationals. There were huge ramifications to those decisions, and Hahn didn't screw it up at all. Jerry, realizing he isn't getting any younger, could have tried to spend his way out of the hole they were in, but they'd essentially be the current Giants. Instead, Hahn's direction has them where they currently are.

Finally, you throwing up past win totals, just as you did when attempting to grade divisional quality, doesn't help your argument against mine in the slightest bit. I don't care what Hahn's win totals were from 2017-2019, nor should you necessarily care about the last 2 seasons for the Giants (and likely the next 2-3) when the team is expected to be any good. In fact, what's better for a rebuilding club with no current young, established big leaguers -- a 62-win season, or a 78-win season? The former is the only correct answer, because it least it sets you up better to replenish your farm. No one cares about Zaidi "keeping pace with Hahn" in win totals over the 2 team's rebuilding phases.

You know what will be better to compare? The White Sox 2021-2025 wins to the Giants wins in the same time frame. That should be fine considering that the Giants aren't that far away from contention according to you, and that the vbest the Sox will do is 3rd place. Oh, but you'll say that the Zaidi wasn't blessed with the same kind of talent to trade as Hahn was leading into his rebuild, so he should be granted more time for his moves to manifest.

But consider also:

"Good leaders find ways to win in spite of the challenges set before them. Bad leaders make excuses. "

You can't have it both ways.

25 Oct 2020 03:36:11
White Sox/Mets/Pirates

Last shot.

White Sox Get:

Brandon Nimmo OF

Mets Get:

Joe Musgrove RHP, Adam Engel OF, Zack Burdi RHP

Pirates Get:

Jonathan Stiever RHP, Micker Adolfo OF, Matthew Allan RHP, Shervyen Newton SS

Agree3 Disagree16

25 Oct 2020 12:14:53
In this trade, I don’t think the Sox even need to give up another significant prospect. They could add a couple guys like Matt Foster and Yermin Mercedes and the Pirates walk away with six young players to develop.

I still think the Pirates could get a much better trade for Musgrove elsewhere, but it’s obvious the White Sox need to add.

The Pirates have no use for Micker Adolfo (who is out of options) and the Sox are freeloading on this one.

25 Oct 2020 17:51:07
Eh, I'd say Adolfo could get some some ABs in one of the corner OF spots against LHP at the very least. We're talking about displacing Jose Osuna and Anthony Alford and the Pirates after all. Both of those guys haven't been good in substantial sample sizes. If there's a DH, they there would definitely be a use for Pittsburgh, but in that case, maybe Mercedes is the more secure bat.

I think the key now would be to get BVW to part with Allan. After this deal they could go after Springer, or Realmuto and use Engel as a CF platoon (JBJ would be a good partner), plus another FA starter. That would give the Mets a legit shot at the postseason in 2021 imo.

To me, Pittsburgh should take this. With only 2 years of control and an 8-start sample kind of sweeting our impression of Musgrove, one really good pitching prospect and a solid one plus 2 upside, high risk PP prospects is not a bad haul.

I think each team improves, and I'm not sure the Sox would trade 6 for one, especially when all 6 are 40-man guys. If the Sox included Foster instead of Burdi, maybe they could get NY to include a better last piece than Newton.

03 Nov 2020 16:57:48
I think the Giants will acquire Luis Robert for Chris Shaw, Luis Basabe, and Andrew Suarez.

Sounds ridiculous?

Now re-read the return the White Sox are giving up for Brandon Nimmo. Mine MIGHT be better.

24 Oct 2020 02:55:12
Yankees Offseason

Trades

Trade #1

Indians get Luke Voit, Clint Frazier, Deivi Garcia, and Jonathan Holder

Yankees get Francisco Lindor


Trade #2

Brewers get Miguel Andujar, Luis Gil, Oswaldo Perez, and Estevan Florial

Yankees get Josh Hader


Free Agency

Resign D.J. LeMahieu for 3 years and $66 million

Sign Trevor Bauer for 1 year and $30 million

Sign Michael Brantley for 2 years and $36 million


Roster (Full Health)

Lineup

1B LeMahieu
RF Judge
SS Lindor
DH Stanton
LF Brantley
2B Torres
C Sanchez
3B Urshela
CF Hicks

Bench

C Higashioka
1B Ford
IF Wade
IF Estrada
OF Tauchman

Rotation

Cole
Bauer
Severino
Montgomery
German

Bullpen

Loaisiga (Swingman)
Nelson (Middle Reliever)
Green (Middle Reliever)
Ottavino (Middle Reliever)
Hader (7th Inning Setup Man)
Britton (8th Inning Setup Man)
Chapman (Closer)

Agree4 Disagree7

24 Oct 2020 15:53:34
It's a sad state of affairs on this site when bwright's trades make more sense than Chi Sox's.

Crazy stuff.

24 Oct 2020 15:58:40
Sort of believable. Deal # 1 and # 2 may find more of a liking if there is some switching of the same guys:

Trade #1

Indians get Miguel Andujar, Clint Frazier, Estevan Florial, and Jonathan Holder

Yankees get Francisco Lindor


Trade #2

Brewers get Luke Voit, Luis Gil, Oswaldo Perez, and Deivi Garcia

Yankees get Josh Hader

The Brewers have a stronger need for a position playing power guy (Voit) and pitching. The Indians have a stronger need for both young and MLB ready outfielders. This change facilitates these two needs.

22 Oct 2020 22:42:46
Some winter Trades:

#1

Mets get: Francisco Lindor
Indians get: Brandon Nimmo (OF), Andres Gimenez (SS), Matthew Allan (RHP), Ryley Gilliam (RHP) .

#2

Angels: Joe Musgrove
Pirates: Brandon Marsh (OF), Patrick Sandoval (LHP), Chris Rodriguez (RHP)

#3

Braves: Nolan Arenado (3B), Mychal Givens (RHP)
Rockies: Touki Toussaint (RHP), Drew Waters (OF), Adam Duvall (OF), Brooks WIlson (RHP) .

#4

Phillies: Gary Sanchez (C), Jordan Montgomery (LHP)
Yankees: Zach Eflin (RHP)

#5

Diamondbacks: Whit Merrifield
Royals: Jon Duplantier (RHP), Alek Thomas (OF), Josh Green (RHP)

#6

Brewers: Lance Lynn (RHP)
Rangers: Mario Feliciano (C), Aaron Ashby (LHP)

#7

White Sox: Josh Hader (LHP)
Brewers: Andrew Vaughn (1B), Konnor Pilkington (LHP), Tyler Johnson (RHP)


#8

Giants: Spencer Turnbull (RHP)
Tigers: Alexander Canario (OF), Melvin Adon (RHP) .

Agree3 Disagree2

23 Oct 2020 01:18:42
Some explanations:

1. The Mets are going to make a splash. A new owner is going to want to acquire one significant player, and BVW will absolutely pull the trigger on Lindor. This would get the Indians' attention and suits many of their immediate needs, with an arm to develop, which they like.

2. Might be a slight overpay from LA, but it'd make it easier for them getting Musgrove on a cheap salary.

3. Arenado's trade value will be difficult to track down. That contract is yucky and he'd be leaving Coors, but Atlanta isn't giving up pieces that would hurt them.

4. Eflin is criminally underrated, and it seems the Yankees have grown tired of Sanchez. Getting Sanchez back with Girardi in a weak catchers market would be a great move. Would the Phillies give up Eflin for Montgomery? That's the question.

5. Merrifield is wasting away on a bad Royals team. Getting Thomas as a future OF along with Duplaniter would help tremendously in KC.

6. Brewers need pitching and have some payroll to work with. He'd make sense in a competitive NL Central division.

7. I'm just trolling Chi Sox at this point. Hader is going to require a haul for Milwaukee to let him go, and while Vaughn is an obvious overpay, it's closer to what the Brewers would demand. (And frankly, if Vaughn weren't a White Sox prospect, Chi Sox wouldn't give two you-know-whats about him being involved) .

8. Turnbull is the kind of guy Zaidi has targeted since coming to San Francisco. Decent peripherals with two plus-pitches. Zaidi will probably find a way to get the Tigers to take two twinkies and a nutri-grain bar for him.

23 Oct 2020 05:03:18
No top-100 prospect for Evan Longoria this time through? Dang it.

23 Oct 2020 06:09:42
Also would be kinda interesting to see the White Sox with 3 of the top 5 left handed relief pitchers in MLB.

But I'll say what I've said a couple times on here - trade major pen pieces at the deadline, not in the offseason. You almost always get more.

23 Oct 2020 16:36:09
Giants, unlike the White Sox, have come to the new age of baseball. They no longer give up prospects like, say, Fernando Tatis, Jr. for guys like James Shields.

I wonder which existing GM did that?

23 Oct 2020 17:22:17
As far as that "top 100" prospect given up for Longoria is concerned, the guy has been cut by two teams and will likely be a AAAA guy in Boston until they need the roster spot.

The only relatively decent player given up in that trade was Stephen Woods, and even then, he's a 25-year-old in High-A that missed all of 2018 and, now, all of 2020.

For all the bad trades the old Giants regime made (McCutchen, Matt Moore), the Longoria one hasn't been that bad.

Now, if you want to talk about bad trades, we can talk about the Samardzija trade or the Todd Frazier trade. Bassitt, Semien, and Montas are all legitimately good MLB players.

I'm not sure White Sox fans should criticize any team about bad trades.

23 Oct 2020 18:32:54
You proposed the Giants get Duran from the Twins a couple months ago. It's hilarious to think you believe that the Longoria trade has been anything but a huge failure for the Giants, a theme that helping them quickly close their contention window. Longoria struggles to hit league average (if he's even on the field), but is still paid like a star. But kudos to them for moving on to Zaidi, who has done a nice job thus far.

Criticize Hahn all you want, but in the grand scheme he did an unreal job of extending Sale, Quintana, and Eaton at the perfect time and then trading them at the peak of their value - securing an ace, budding superstar third baseman, and perennial 40 HR, .300 hitter, not to mention the potential of Kopech, Dunning, and Cease. Not to mention inking Robert, finding Anderson out of a nowhere JUCO (he got killed initially for that pick), and the last 3 drafts that look pretty darn good. The Kuechel and Grandal signings are icing on the cake.

The Giants will be very lucky to be in that position after 3 years of their rebuild.

23 Oct 2020 19:10:04
Longoria, in the grand scheme of things, is a wash. He's not hurting the Giants financially. In fact, the Giants could cut Longoria and run 3B with a combo of Wilmer Flores and Donovan Solano, who they pay a combined total of less than 4M a year.

At the time of the trade, the Giants didn't have an MLB-ready 3B. The free agent options for 3B were:

-Mike Moustakas (came with a QO attached)
-Todd Frazier

That's it. Those are the only 3B who signed MLB deals that winter. So it was make a trade, or keep Pablo Sandoval as the 3B. They weren't doing either, so they made a trade. The only other 3B that was notably on the block was Chase Headley (go look how he did in 2018).

The trade wasn't popular, and it didn't make a lot of sense, considering the Giants giving up young talent for stars well past their prime, but again, the Giants actually fired their GM the next winter. They recognize they made a massive mistake.

23 Oct 2020 19:20:08
The Bobby Evans era in San Francisco was a failure of massive proportions, and the Giants are still paying the price.

But, to suggest it's going to be a long time before they are in the White Sox position shows your ignorance to what Zaidi has done.

Like he did time and time again in LA, Zaidi waved his magic wand and turned guys like Mike Yastrzemski, Donovan Solano, and Alex Dickerson from castaways into legit talents. Yaz has a surplus value of around 60M. Need you be reminded, Yaz played over 500 games in the Orioles minors and they never gave him a shot.

Between that and restocking with young talent overnight. And he did so with almost no consequence. He got Jordan Humphreys for Billy Hamilton. Basabe for cash (thanks Rick Hahn), Anthony Banda for cash. Daniel Robertson for cash. Will Wilson just by taking on Zack Cozart.

The Giants won't be contenders next year, but if you think they are a long way away, you're not paying attention.

The White Sox would gladly fire Rick Hahn to take someone with Farhan Zaidi's track record.

23 Oct 2020 20:04:34
Except, they don't have to. Hahn built an affordable AL force. Give credit where credit is due.

The best case scenario for the Giants is contending in 2023, and that's absolutely best case even with their spending capabilities.

You getting excited about those AAAA guys is cute though. I remember those days.

I also remember the days when you told me Luis Robert could never headline a Noah Syndergaard trade. Sheesh.

23 Oct 2020 20:18:12
"Longoria is not hurting the Giants financially".

Whoo boy.

23 Oct 2020 20:19:21
AAAA guys? Obviously, not all of the guys Zaidi acquired will amount to team contributors. But it's not like Zaidi doesn't have a track record of these kind of moves. Value-grabs on guys no one else wants.

It's almost like there's two teams in the World Series employing similar strategies. Interesting.

As far as the future is concerned, the Giants have legit talent coming up the pipeline soon. Ramos, Bishop, Canario, Hjelle, Corry, Wilson, etc. I'd imagine they'll even try to fast track Luciano. They'll have tons of money coming off the books after 2021 (Belt, Crawford, Cueto), and very well might clear at least one of those contracts before 2021 begins.

I'd place good money on the following bet: The Giants will ANOTHER win THREE World Series before the White Sox even win one.

23 Oct 2020 20:28:09
Also, as flattered as I am that you still reflect on conversations from two years ago, it's a little insane how much space I take up in that noggin of yours.

As much as you love to deny it, I seem to be on your mind a lot, as you reference me all the time.

In fact, it's pretty clear that you trying to bring up past conversations is evidence that you can't keep up in the current one, so your last-ditch effort is to pull whatever tricks you can to look correct.

You were wrong about the Longoria trade. It's okay. You should be used to it by now. It's probably time to head upstairs and get your dinner from mom. I hear it's your favorite: chicken nuggets and apple sauce. Enjoy.

23 Oct 2020 20:54:43
I reference you all the time? Who just posted a trade to "troll me"? We're trolling people now? And I'm the one getting dinner from mom?

You're willing to bet money that your team wins 3 titles before mine wins 1? And I'm the homer?

You just can't make this stuff up.

23 Oct 2020 22:43:16
How are them chicken nuggets tho?

23 Oct 2020 22:49:59
You've mentioned me in like 2-3 posts. You clearly recall, vividly, what comments I've made several years ago.

Meanwhile, I had to be reminded this website even existed still and then I showed up and was reminded of your existence.

I bet you're used to that by now.

24 Oct 2020 07:20:03
It's hard to forget you saying Robert couldn't headline a Syndergaard deal. He was like a 50-60th ranked prospect when he came over from Cuba, and you scoffed at me for asserting that he would be a top-5 prospect in a couple years.

Yet here we are. On a forum where we are supposed to discuss trades, he probably in the top-10 in the sport in trade value.

It was probably smart to make a new account and try to limit the trail of abhorrent takes that people can reference.

24 Oct 2020 15:38:41
Since it still exists for posterity sake, we can click on your profile observe some of your other gems.

-Rutherford, Adolfo, Henzman for Greinke, Peralta and 25M.

Looking at it now, you weren't even close. The Astros gave up far more for JUST Zack Greinke, not even adding in Peralta (who was almost a 4 win player when you tried adding him in) .

The White Sox gave up more for Nomar Mazara.

Speaking of Mazara, you did this one:

-Walker, Stiever, Johnson for Benintendi, Price and 21M.

They gave up Walker for Mazara, who is a worse player and has aa full season more of service time.

I'm not sure you get to criticize anyone's trade ideas.

24 Oct 2020 16:28:52
I'm flattered you find it important to remember me.

And no, since it's still up, I thought I'd remind you of the quote I made:

"That Robert is a top 10 prospect or not is irrelevant when I think the Mets will want even better players yet, prospects or not. "

Literally every indication at the time from beat writers and folks in the know suggested that the Mets were demanding two top 10 prospects for Syndergaard. This isn't even new information at this point.

So, for me to say that it would take more than Luis Robert to get Syndergaard at the time wasn't outrageous. It fit in with the reality of what the Mets were asking for.

They were also looking for MLB ready players. In the 2017-18 offseason, Robert wasn't near MLB-ready (he debuted this year) . In fact, none of the guys (Robert, Cease, Adams) were MLB-ready at the beginning of 2018. And in 2019, when he had less team control, the price never shifted, hence why he's still with the Mets.

You love to criticize my response, but you get absolutely triggered any time someone else isn't getting their rocks off to White Sox players. The truth is, your trade was bad. And you got called out for it.

But if any disagreement with your opinion makes you remember it for THREE YEARS (that was October of 2017), then maybe you need to quit thinking so highly of yourself.

24 Oct 2020 18:51:55
When has a team ever traded 2 top-10 prospects in the same deal? A team rarely even has 2 top-10 prospects. The Mets were not asking for that. The Sox didn't even get that for Sale. Trading Syndergaard would have signified a rebuild, therefore MLB-ready talent wouldn't have been necessary. He wasn't moved because they decided to not rebuild.

Still, this was your most recent deadline deal proposal. This site sees 25-player deals, the Yankees spending $700 million in an offseason, and then stuff like this. A Giants homer thinking that Evan Longoria is worth more than a bucket of balls and 2 fungo bats. But a top-100, stud pitching prospect from the Twins. But that's not even enough for you. They'd have to throw in a another solid, MLB-ready, top-20 org pitching prospect too. Just horrendous.

"Twins get: Evan Longoria, $20M
Giants get: Edwar Colina (RHP), Jhoan Duran (RHP)

Twins have one of the worst 3B situations - hitting a very nice 69 wRC+ from that position. Giants pay down some of that salary to get a better prospect (Duran) . "

The team literally had Josh Donaldson on a 4-year deal.

It's also funny that you think the Giants were "forced to make the deal for Longoria because of a lack of other options", so their only choice was to acquire a declining third baseman coming off a .730 OPS that was owed more than $80 million guaranteed. You're never forced to do something as dumb as that. They won't even get an average hitter after all is said and done. Even the magician Zaidi can't make that deal disappear, and neither can you

With the constraints they have, the Giants really bailed out the Rays and helped make it possible for them to contend here in the past couple of seasons.

25 Oct 2020 12:10:32
"When has a team ever traded 2 top-10 prospects in the same deal"

No one said it was a fair deal. But that's clearly what the Mets wanted. It's no surprise that no one paid the price, and it's evident the Mets didn't like the packages they got (Syndergaard is still a Met) .

As far as that Longo trade, let's talk about it. For starters, the Giants have already had success getting teams to take on bad deals. Zaidi got the Braves to take on all of Melancon's contract and give him a really good prospect (Tristan Beck, 40FV) .

So, it's not out of the question that he could potentially clear other bad contracts. Keep in mind, we're talking about the GM who saw value in Yaz, not the GM who couldn't see it in Tatis. So based on history, Zaidi has a track record of getting good deals. If you don't like it, fine. But you'd have called anyone crazy had they projected the Melancon deal.

Second, Donaldson missed all of August. As of the trade deadline, he hadn't played for a month. And on August 31st, the Twins 3B combined for 69+ wRC. In August, Longoria was hitting 125 wRC+.

Longoria wasn't owed more than "80M". As of September 1st, when he'd join the Twins, here's his salary breakdown:

Rest of 2020: 2.25M
2021: 18.67M
2022: 19.67M
2023: 5M Buyout

If you don't like the idea, that's fine. If you think it's egregious, that's fine. I don't. And it's grounded in reality. But that's my opinion. I'm willing to embrace it and defend it.

25 Oct 2020 12:13:30
Chi Sox,

I know it’s difficult for you to consider any thought except the crazy ones you think up instead of doing your multiplication tables, but you realize that it’s possible to consider, contextually, why a GM made a trade, right?

Evans made comments to dozens of outlets about the Longoria trade, all of which I summarized in these comments.

Much like there’s a context for why Rick Hahn gave away Tatis (and in effect, lost the White Sox nearly 200M in value) . He gave him up because he had no idea Tatis was any good; he thought a 34-year-old James Shields was valuable, and because he’s not a great GM.

It’s okay though. It really is. The White Sox have a bad GM. Just enjoy 2005 until it completely fades from the rear view mirror. It’s all you’re getting.

But it may help you a lot if you try to understand someone’s reasoning, and learn to cope when it doesn’t match your opinion.

These are things grown ups do.

25 Oct 2020 18:15:26
A bad GM. He has quite possibly built the best young core of players in baseball from scratch, and he's bad GM. Just funny. And that's even without Tatis, a trade that no one here is defending.

You have to still be trolling. Zaidi hasn't accomplished a darn thing yet, and will likely be looking up at San Diego and LA for the next 3-5 years minimum. If he was smart, he'd trade Yaz because the next time the Giants are relevant, he won't be any good. He's already a 30 year old corner OF. He could ask Hahn for advice on how to trade good players at the top of their value and securing top-end returns.

Longoria was owed more than $80M when the Giants acquired him. But he's still signed through 2022. So why would the Twins want 2 declining third baseman signed to big AAVs? Longoria is in no way shape or form an upgrade to Donaldson. It doesn't matter what Donaldson was hitting at the time. Just admit that trade was really, really bad.

And newsflash, a 40 FV prospect is not "really good". Beck was only the return because Melancon is still a solid pitcher. $40 is an average

Let me give you a dose of reality. No one (I repeat), NO ONE, is trading for Evan Longoria unless SF pay 98% of his owed money. He is not good at this point of his career. Most orgs have his skillset at their AAA-affiliate.

25 Oct 2020 18:15:49
Let's also try to stick to one account, ok?

15 Oct 2020 20:40:23
White Sox/Mets/Pirates

White Sox Get:

Brandon Nimmo OF

Mets Get:

Joe Musgrove RHP

Pirates Get:

Matthew Thompson RHP
Micker Adolfo OF
Zack Burdi RHP

Agree2 Disagree6

21 Oct 2020 02:14:38
A trade from a guy named "Chi Sox" that gives the White Sox a really good player without giving up anything in return.

Seems awfully suspicious.

21 Oct 2020 14:03:28
Before Chi Sox jumps in with some lousy defense of his lousy trade, here are the facts:

Adolfo is the "best" player in this trade, and he's a 24-year-old who hasn't played but a handful of games above high-A ball (and it was a good AA stint, either) .

Thompson is a 20-year-old with 2.0 IP in his pro career. A kid with pretty major control issues and consistency issues, according to scouts. A year away from baseball did not do him any favors.

And Zack Burdi was a cute entry. Get him in the same organization as his older brother. Only problem is, Zack is far worse than his brother. Zack loves to serve up home runs.

Outside of clearly being a homer, I don't know why you'd think anyone would be interested in this package for guys with 3 remaining years of control each. This is clearly one-sided and you know it.

And please spare yourself of trying to defend any of the players you put in the package or trying to downplay Nimmo/ Musgrove. It won't end well.

21 Oct 2020 22:39:03
Good to see the Statbook is back under a new name just in time for the offseason. Thanks for the feedback.

21 Oct 2020 22:55:42
I'm willing to say this is light for the Sox to Pit.

What I will add though:

Stiever could be another option as the headliner, you make a good point about Thompson not having the pro-ball looks yet. But he has a projectable frame and smooth delivery that projects as a starter long term.

There were reports that teams liked Adolfo's alternate sight numbers, particularly some insane batted ball metrics that give a guy like him upside. The swing and miss issues? Undoubtedly a concern.

Burdi has potential back-end stuff (particularly 98 mph at almost 2600 rpms with his heater) . It's not crazy to take a chance on that.

22 Oct 2020 18:41:42
I should be a little more fair. You mentioned decent players. But if I'm Pittsburgh, and I'm giving up Joe Musgrove, who has been stellar and has 3 years of team control still, I'm wanting an elite prospect. I think Andrew Vaughn would be someone who would get the talks going, and even then, he's probably not enough.

22 Oct 2020 18:42:55
As far as this proposal goes, another thing to consider: there's almost no reason to Chicago to be involved. The Mets could get Musgrove (as they are in this deal) and send Brandon Nimmo and another prospect (Matthew Allan, for example) to Pittsburgh and it'd be a pretty fair deal.

22 Oct 2020 20:36:04
But Nimmo makes little sense for Pittsburgh. They aren't contending in the next 2 (not 3) seasons when they'd have control of him. That's why the Sox are involved. Pittsburgh is in the thick of a rebuild without a light at the end of the tunnel yet.

Even if the Sox were crazy and wanted to offer Vaughn for Nimmo, how does he fit for the Mets? Not great at all. Dylan Cease or Michael Kopech? Not great either because you don't really know what they are going to give you in 2021. The Mets, assuming they want to contend right a away with new ownership, need 2 SPs (maybe 3) and a CFer (as a start) . They can expend one of their 4 (all pretty quality btw) left handed corner OFers to get Musgrove for Nimmo, who are pretty close in value.

Musgrove will be cheaper than bringing Stroman back or going after Bauer/ Gausman, so they can go hard after George Springer maybe. That's seemingly a good fit.

Andrew Vaughn, a top-20 prospect and one of the best bats in the minors, for 2 years (not 3) of Joe Musgrove? Cmon, let's not do this. He had a good 8-start sample this year, but we can't treat it like it was a 30-start sample. He's a very good pitcher, but isn't worth $55 million+ in surplus value, as you're suggesting.

Another iteration could be the Sox throwing Adam Engel to the Mets to take over Marisnick's role and have them give another prospect to the Pittsburgh, maybe Allen as you suggested.

23 Oct 2020 00:34:29
Sure. It makes no sense for Pittsburgh, but if they are forced to choose between the package the White Sox gave, or Brandon Nimmo, they'll take Nimmo a thousand times.

And according to Fangraphs, Spotrac, Cots' Baseball Contracts, and Baseball-Reference, Joe Musgrove is a free agent after 2023. That's 3 years of a budding ace. Musgrove was literally a 3.3 WAR player in 2019. It's not like you're trading for Jeff Samardzija here.

But this is what you do. You make outlandish ideas, then you try to downplay the players involved so you can justify your outlandish idea.

The moral of the story is: Pittsburgh isn't giving up Joe Musgrove for a bunch of lottery tickets. The Giants got more for a rental of Sam Dyson than the White Sox are giving up for 3 years of a controllable starter.

If you want guys like Brandon Nimmo or Joe Musgrove, you actually have to give up real talent for them. You can try and twist and contort the conversation to move the goalposts 18,000 times, but it won't alleviate the fact that your post was 100% a homer post. Just accept it and move on.

23 Oct 2020 00:38:46
Also, you thinking the issue is that the Mets aren't getting enough shows how woefully you're missing the point.

Pittsburgh is not giving up Joe Musgrove for a bunch of nobody prospects.

That's like saying the Marlins could get Lucas Giolito for Harold Ramirez and Jon Berti. It's as outlandish and silly.

23 Oct 2020 00:46:01
Lastly, it's SIGNIFICANTLY more likely that the Pirates would get Andrew Vaughn for Joe Musgrove over the paltry, laughable, borderline contemptuous package you have Pittsburgh getting for him.

I'm not convinced Chicago would give up Vaughn, for what it's worth. And I don't blame them. But it's certainly what would and should be expected from Pittsburgh.

Also, for someone who bloviates about "surplus value" all the time, you conveniently seem to forget about it when it comes to your own team.

One calculator gave this rundown:
Musgrove: 39M
Nimmo: 26M
White Sox package: 9.5.

So either you don't believe in surplus, or you're an absolutely massive homer. Please let me know in the comments below which option it is.

23 Oct 2020 06:06:06
Statbook, I know it's been a long year, but you know what year it is, right? If they are free agents in 2023, that means they are signed through 21 and 22. So 2 seasons remaining. It's not after the 2023 season, it's before. Spotrac even has handy visualizations to make it easier for the easily confused. 17, 18, 19 were his pre-arb years. That extra year makes a big difference in his value. But yada, yada, yada, I know. You still think it's bad.

I'll amend and say Stiever, Thompson and Adolfo gets the ball rolling. 2 40+s and an upside-40 for mister budding ace after a nice 8 starts against the central divisons. Dyson got 2 low-end 40s and a 35.

Dylan Cease could also be in play, but I'm sure they want their new pitching PD staff to get a crack at him plus a new ML pitching coach eventually. If he improves the spin efficiency on his FB (albeit easier said than done), watch out. Or just start throwing a cutter when you already cut your 99 mph 4-seamer and pull a Corbin Burnes. He doesn't make a lot of sense for the Mets, but 5 years of him

Im also not missing the point by sending more to NY. They would sent a prospect to PIT that they like more. It's literally the point of a three team deal. Engel or even a guy like Matt Foster could bring immediate value to NY for which they'd part with a prospect.

So potentially:

NYM: Musgrove, Engel

CHW: Nimmo

PIT: Steiver, Thompson, Adolfo, and Thomas Szapucki

After all, it's the Mets getting the "budding ace".

23 Oct 2020 16:52:36
I'll amend my statement to say that adding Stiever doesn't even begin to move the needle.

Since you love surplus value so much, I went in and adjusted the numbers to your newest proposal. Based on a few calculators you can find, here's some numbers I found:

Musgrove: 39.8
Nimmo: 26.4
Szapucki: 5.4
Stiever: 4.7
Engel: 5.0 (I'm being generous and changing it from a zero)
Thompson: 4.1
Adolfo: 3.0

So, if you're keeping track at home, here's how this all works out:

Pirates: Give up 39.8M, get 17.2M. They LOSE 22.6M in value.
Mets: Give up 31.8M, get 44.8. They GAIN 13.0M in value.
White Sox: Give up 16.8M, get 26.4M. They GAIN 9.6M in value.

Yeah, I'm not sure why the Pirates would want to give up the best player in that trade and also get the worst return in said trade.

The other factor is that I fudged the numbers to make Adam Engel more valuable than he probably is, simply out of knowing he could be valuable going forward. Also, we don't know how the teams actually value any of the players going forward, it could be higher, could be lower.

But the initial trade in no way even gets the needle moving.

23 Oct 2020 16:59:29
Now, if you substitute Cease for Stiever, it actually makes a lot of sense. But it's quite telling that the reasonable trade that makes sense is the concession trade for you.

The point in all of this is: for a guy who really gets quite arrogant about "surplus value", you seem to conveniently ignore it when it comes to your beloved White Sox.

I'm still waiting for your reply: do you not actually believe in surplus value numbers, or are you just a massive homer? Please respond in the comments below.

23 Oct 2020 18:58:19
You pulling those numbers from baseballtradevalues. com does very little for your argument, I hope you understand that. That's not a few calculators, that's one. It's been a couple of offseasons now where we have established you don't understand surplus value in both baseball trades, nor it the basic sense of economics. It's not arrogant to reference it in trades when it's literally how buiness, in all sectors, is handled. It's a core principle of economics.

The biggest fallacy in a calculator like that is that they put every player on a uniform scale, as in they treat their values as if every team would value them exactly the same. For example, a 5-win projected player is much more valuable to a 88-projected win team than the 75-projected win team. So, does it recognize the position the Mets are in with their OFers and SPs? No. Does it recognize the small amount of "MTV" around Musgrove on the team? No. It's their "value" in a vacuum.

I'd guess a +/ - $10M confidence interval on those numbers if I ran accuracy diagnostics from previous years.

You don't even understand how team control works, go figure. But tell me more about surplus value.

Its ok though, you have a handy calculator to guide you; one that I'm sure GMs across to league reference throughout their discussions.

23 Oct 2020 20:49:54
As much as I disagree with John Bitzer, his numbers are no better or worse than yours. Your valuation of Andrew Vaughn (55M) and his (45M) aren't that different. I'd imagine if you asked other experts, their number would fall somewhere between 40-50M. You obviously put a premium on his value because you like what team he plays for.

That being said, you may not like the numbers on guys like Stiever and others from Bitzer, but the margin of error is probably not going to make this suddenly a great trade for Pittsburgh. (Unless of course they are absolutely in love with one or several of those players) .

And your issue with Bitzer's site is exactly what you're doing. You're saying, "He's a very good pitcher, but isn't worth $55 million+ in surplus value". That's YOUR value (and likely not even one single GM's value, outside of maybe Rick Hahn) . And 39.8M likely isn't the value the Pirates have on Musgrove. Cherington's value is probably much higher.

Obviously team needs and situational context change the value on players. For what it's worth, I don't typically like those calculators, but it's one of the few that's readily available to attach a number to a player.

Can you agree that your "Vaughn is worth $55M" is a total guess? At one point, Christian Arroyo had a value of over 25M. He obviously never amounted to that. And at one point, Mike Yastrzemski had a value of 0. Now it's somewhere aroung 50-60M.

This is where the arrogance comes into play. Surplus value on prospects, especially, assumes that all of the scouting reports are correct.

I acknowledge the chance that someone like Jonathan Stiever or Micker Adolfo could be massive stars. I also acknowledge that they could be out of pro baseball in 3 years. We don't know.

But strangely enough, you insist that every young player that has ever been a part of the White Sox organization is a future Hall of Famer, and they always conveniently are valued at their 99th percentile projection. And when you don't like the values someone else places on them, you go on a tirade where you change the subject every other post because it's the only chance you might have to feel like you're still in the race.

Newsflash: I'm only talking to you because it's funny to get a rise out of you. I'm sitting in quarantine bored to tears and trolling you brings me a lot of comedic relief.

Now, enjoy watching your White Sox forever be Chicago's bridesmaid. Toodles.

23 Oct 2020 21:53:38
You mean you are just trolling and don't actually believe the stuff you're spewing? Ya don't say.

My thing with Vaughn is, find me one scouting report that is skeptical of his hit and power tool. Literally one. Sox pitchers said all spring and summer camp that he was one, if not the toughest hitter for them to get out in inter-squads, and that's including all the ML guys. There's a reason why he wasn't moved for Lance Lynn at the deadline this year, and Lance Lynn is a better pitcher than someone like Musgrove. I'm high on him, yes. But so are many others across the industry.

Even as high as I am on Vaughn, I don't think I've ever seen a prospect lauded more than Vlad Jr., and he hasn't exactly hit the ground running based on the standards the industry set for him. He has some pretty significant launch angle issues that he needs to correct to hit his potential. Not to mention keeping his body in shape. Vaughn is no sure think because no prospect is a sure thing. $55 million was indeed an estimate for Vaughn, based on what 60-grade position players typically produce through their 6-years of control. It wasn't pulled out of my you-know-what. You presented the trade value. com stuff as the biblical word to trades.

I don't know why you think I'm in love with every Sox prospect. They have an average system currently, if that. That's why my thought to get creative was with this 3-teamer. The original one was light, I've conceded that. Getting a good RFer is not going to be easy for them, which is why there's a decent chance they end up with one of Pederson, Grossman, JBJ, or someone in that realm.

Nimmo may be the Mets' best option to trade out of their group, and the probability that they trade one of Nimmo, Conforto, Davis, Smith or McNiel jumps up even higher if there's no DH in the NL in 2021. The Pirates can bet on Musgrove to improve his stock further in the next half a year or another full one, but he may not get more valuable than right now. If it does take someone like Dylan Cease, a top-50 prospect a year ago who sits 99 mph on his FB (& like I said, a shape tweak away from it being an elite pitch) with 2 plus breaking balls and 5 years of control, the Sox consider it, depending on if they are confident enough in their plan for him moving forward as well as who they can land in free agency.

If we don't somewhat trust scouting reports while also considering each team's context, then what are we even doing on here?

23 Oct 2020 22:48:28
Good grief kiddo. This is too funny.

I think you're in love with every scout because the moment I even slightly suggested that some teams might not hold a 55M value, you lose your ever-loving mind. It's hilarious to watch you slobber all over yourself trying to defend the White Sox so hard.

I mean, it's cute that one of their 8 remaining fans has stuck around this long. At least you'll be able to tell the other 400 bandwagons about it later on.

Anyhoo, I'll give you a call when the White Sox DFA Andrew Vaughn in 3 seasons to make room for J. A. Happ.

Until then, you can ask your dad what 2005 was like and what it was like watching the worst World Series champions in recent history.

Now, back to Spanish homework. Mom says you have a C in it.

24 Oct 2020 07:10:48
The team that went 11-1 in the postseason, knocked out the previous 2 defending champions, and had a starting staff throw 4 STRAIGHT COMPLETE GAMES was "the worst World Series champions in recent history. " We won't see a team every go 11-1 in the postseason in a very long time, possibly not ever again.

Since you like wagers, I'd bet the house that the Sox win more games than the Giants over the next 5 seasons. Farhan should be able to "wave his magic wand" by then, right? And since the Sox are the "bridesmaids of Chicago", I'd do the same bet for the Cubs. How about the Bay Area? Do the Giants win more than the A's in the next 5 seasons? Good luck with that. Who's really the bridesmaid? Have fun getting hyped over Donovan Solano over the next few years. Super exciting stuff.

I'll say it again, Zaidi says his prayers every night hoping to build a core as good as Rick Hahn did. They have a very, very long way to go, but lucky for you they have a solid guy that has a chance to get them back to contention.

Do all of us a favor and stick to the trade discussion. The frustrated attempts at personal attacks are a waste of time. But we've learned that's the only possible route when people present compelling facts that tend to hurt your narratives. The whole "kiddo" thing is getting a little weird, I might add.

24 Oct 2020 15:52:31
"Do all of us a favor and stick to the trade discussion. The frustrated attempts at personal attacks are a waste of time. "

Kind of difficult to do when any disagreement with you makes you go into overdrive. You can't handle someone who doesn't act like a raging White Sox homer along with you.

So you make up nonsensical "surplus value" numbers that are all ridiculously high. Then, when someone else throws out numbers, they are conveniently "from the wrong source" (meanwhile, you fail to even source yours) .

And then, to cap it off, you insist on bringing up comments from THREE YEARS AGO. Seriously. You can't let that one go, can you? If you're adamant that I don't take up any space in your head, then quit bringing it up.

Moral of the story, you want people to "stick to trade discussions", but you can't handle those conversations. You can't handle anyone disagreeing with you. Because you're a child. And until you stop acting like a child, I will continue calling you one.

Hopefully mom buys you that Luis Robert jersey for Christmas. Helpful hint: Wash the dishes a few times. That'll make her love you more.

Let me know when you're ready to be disagreed with and then we can talk baseball. Capeesh?

24 Oct 2020 17:42:11
The surplus estimates are my own. Believe it or not, people can think for themselves. But again, me throwing a value out for Vaughn was a vague estimate, not a presentation of absolute value as you did. That calculator will always leave out important context. It also had a bunch of missing, wrong, or outdated information.

I have been consistently sticking to trade talk, but then you keep brining up my parents and calling the 05 Sox a bad team. It couldn't be more off topic. Then when you're wrong about things (Nimmo/ Musgrove control and knowing how player control works, the 05 Sox not actually being a bad team, the White Sox rebuild looking pretty darn good, etc. ), the topic is conveniently dropped.

I'm no more of a raging homer than you are. Evan Longoria for a top-100 prospect? Saying he's not been a terrible deal for SF? Saying the Giants will win 3 more before the Sox win 1? Zaidi having a magic wand? Seriously, look in the mirror.

You can't say something as dumb as "Hopefully mom buys you that Luis Robert jersey for Christmas. Helpful hint: Wash the dishes a few times. That'll make her love you more. " and then call me a child. It makes no sense. It's just flat out rude and weird. There's never been a more childish response on this site. But I'd imagine if this wasn't an anonymous forum, your style would suddenly change.

03 Nov 2020 17:37:22
LOL, Rick Hahn just hired a 76-year-old, washed up manager who will probably lose any ounce of respect from the young, diverse clubhouse that Hahn has built.

Between his comments on kneeling for the anthem, his old-school antics, and how polarizing he's been in nearly every clubhouse he's ever managed, it truly is remarkable how badly Rick Hahn and the White Sox screwed the pooch in this hire.

And to think, the fired Rick Renteria for an objectively worse option.

You should hope the Angels hire Bobby Evans as their GM. It may be the only shot at getting a worse hire this offseason.

05 Nov 2020 13:21:21
The TLR hire was 100% Jerry Rinesdorf. He pulled the rug out from underneath his executive of the year.

05 Nov 2020 17:26:50
It seems that Rick Hahn isn't doing a great job of demanding his owner trust him to make necessary baseball hires.

Also, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in awards handed out by a magazine that has been out of print since 2012. But when you're the White Sox and you want attention to stay relevant, I guess you take what you can get.

05 Nov 2020 20:01:42
Did you watch the Last Dance on ESPN? Jerry's going to Jerry. TLR is a friend of his, and the hire contradicts everything Hahn said he was looking for in a manager in his end-of-the-year press conference. He presumably wanted Hinch, Roberts, or Cora, but Jerry vetoed.

Jerry has been holding the team back for years and holding back Hahn as well. Hahn wanted to to rebuild when he took over in 2012 but Rinesdorf insisted on them trying to compete with mediocre payrolls and a bad player dev. group. It took Hahn until 2017 to finally get him to buy in, and now after Hahn got his way, the team is loaded.

04 Oct 2020 00:57:41
HerE second trade of day braces and Astros

Astros get
3b Austin Riley
Rp Luke Jackson
Braces prospects
30# c Alex Jackson
8# LP Tucker Davison
11 Rp Freddy Tarnok
13# of Greyson Jenista
31# 1b Braxton Davidson

Braces get
3b Alex Bregman
Sp Zack Greinke
Rp Lance McCullers

Astros get
Young 3b to replace bregman , plus bull pen help , two top prospect pitching arm. , young c who just need Chance top of prospect and young 1b

Braves get super star 3b ,
They get vet starter who in past has been link to braves and I think Braves could convert McCullers to there closer

Agree0 Disagree7

05 Oct 2020 21:27:14
Hey, let's get the Braves a superstar 3B while giving up not a single one of our young, MLB-ready starters, not one elite prospect, or really anyone of significant value.

Awfully convenient strategy. Hope it works out for you.

 


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