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02 Dec 2020 08:45:22
Let me extend an olive branch to Chi Sox, publicly.

We've had some pretty extreme conversations on here. I'll be honest, I enjoy them. I enjoy getting you worked up, and enjoy seeing the wild takes you'll make to justify an opinion, even when it's clear I'm messing with you. But I've also learned a lot from you and genuinely enjoy talking baseball. If I didn't enjoy these convos, I wouldn't engage in them.

However, it seems that we've reached a point in which it has become juvenile, obnoxious, and frankly, ridiculous. I play as much a role in it as you.

We're both passionate about our teams, and it's clear we both have strong opinions. That's perfectly okay. It's baseball. It's a game made for the fans, to be fans.

But we need to both agree, publicly, not to continue the ridiculous behavior here. No more making posts directly, or indirectly calling out the other over a difference of opinion.

No more personal shots or calling out one's character. No more shots below the belt.

Let's agree to disagree on the White Sox and Giants. If we can't do that, then at least agree to leave the other alone.

It's really time we move on, quit being childish, and enjoy baseball.


Agree15 Disagree12

25 Nov 2020 15:30:15
A potential added change subsequent or concurrent with Francisco Lindor being traded from the Indians...

Indians get: Lourdes Gurriel Jr., Jordan Groshans, and Adam Kloffenstein

Blue Jays get Jose Ramirez and Bradley Zimmer (as a throw in)

Discussion: Solidifies the Blue Jays infield by pushing Vlad Jr to 1B while adding a defensive fourth outfield who's primary spot is CF but can play all three spots.

Indians take a "first step" in solving one third of the worst OF in the major leagues while adding a true 3B to the minor league system (current 3B # 1 prospect, Nolan Jones, is really a 1B) &, of course, Cleveland acquires an arm that hasn't been refined to the degree it could be in the Indians pitching development & training machine.


Agree2 Disagree6

25 Nov 2020 16:33:44
I can't imagine the Indians are remotely interested in moving Ramirez, and if they were, it would be for a package that is 100% favor.

They'll fleece the team and hamstring their farm system for a decade. That's the only scenario in which I see them moving Jose Ramirez.

25 Nov 2020 19:10:16
Yeah I don't think this is enough for Ramirez.

25 Nov 2020 19:50:29
NOT enough for Ramirez and its a HUGE but. He has a controllable contract and the Indians would not be willing to trade him unless they are made an offer they can't refuse and this ain't that.

25 Nov 2020 20:06:35
Not a chance from the Jays. Lourdes Gurriel Jr. Is on the cusp of being an allstar And Jordan Groshans will be very good player.

26 Nov 2020 02:22:52
Baseball Trade Values numerically defines this deal at: 68.1 to 67.8 (so close that it doesn't matter) So, while JRam is huge. and Gurriel Jr might become. and Groshans is seen as the next. and. and. and. At the end of the day being today, the trade is rated about even.

26 Nov 2020 14:01:14
Wait, you think it'd be the BLUE JAYS that turn that trade down?

Whatever is in the water up north, please keep it there.

27 Nov 2020 17:39:34
Ramirez was second in the MVP Voting and has been the Tribe's most consistent offensive player. Talk about 'being on the cusp'. potential and maybes but Ramirez has produced and proven himself.

28 Nov 2020 22:21:53
When the Jays will truely be ready to win, in about 3 years, Ramirez will be a FA and won't resign with TO. Jays need Outfielders. Guriell is really starting to be a great player. The Jays don't need infielders for the rebuild, they have Groshans and Martin coming up along with Biggio and Bichette.

As much as Ramirez is the best player in the trade, it doesn't help the Jays when they are going to be ready.

Just my opinion.

29 Nov 2020 13:18:23
Have read articles that the Blue Jays are interested in Lindor which would mean an OF addition. Makes more sense than Ramirez and the Jays would add a switch hitter at the top of the line-up---and bigger might keep him off the Yankees roster.

30 Nov 2020 18:40:17
Minnow, it probably doesn't make sense for the Blue Jays to give up that return for Ramirez (although a Gurriel + Groshans return would be close to what they'd need for Lindor, in my opinion) .

But I don't think it's a remotely fair deal for the Indians to give up for a 28-year-old infielder who has been worth 20.5 wins (2020-adjusted) over the past 3 seasons. That's a value of 160M, while he was only paid 14M in that span.

Even if he destroys every ligament in his body and never plays again, and the Indians accidentally exercise his '22 and '23 options, he still provided over 110M in value.

Over the next 3 seasons, even with all of his options exercised, Ramirez is owed 35M. He only has to put up 4.4 WAR, combined in 3 seasons, or about 1.5 each season to be "worth" that contract. If he puts up only 3 WAR/ season (which would be his worst production since 2015), he's still worth 37M, which is more valuable than Gurriel, just on his own.

Ramirez's value is insane. And I don't think you even want to consider what type of deal it would take to pry him from Cleveland's cold, dead (but abjectly poor) hands.

30 Nov 2020 20:04:41
Groshans is listed as a shortstop but on the Blue Jays prospect ratings claim that he's better suited as a 3B. Have read the Tribe is interested in OF Gurriel but that would have to include more in that deal and Groshans doesn't seem to be a shortstop in MLB so if the Indians want a ss he won't be in any deal. They believe they have a ss in the near future so the Jays would have to change if they want Frankie.

24 Nov 2020 14:32:42
Some trades for y'all to downvote:

Trade #1
Giants get: Blake Snell
Rays get: Joey Bart

Explanation: The Giants need, and said they will absolutely target SP. Considering they have Posey at C, and Patrick Bailey (who was a Zaidi pick), would they trade Joey Bart (not a Zaidi pick) for a really, really good lefty?

The Rays getting an MLB ready catcher (and a top 15 prospect) for Snell would be a huge get.

Trade #2
Dodgers get: Josh Hader
Brewers get: Edwin Rios, Jacob Amaya, Andy Pages

Explanation: Edwin Rios is very, very good. He's super underrated, and the Brewers need corner infield help badly. Rios fits that need. He'll hit 30 HRs in Milwaukee, easily.

Trade #3
White Sox get: Lance Lynn
Rangers get: Danny Mendick, Micker Adolfo, Bryce Bush, Andrew Dalquist

Explanation: Lynn is pretty underrated as far as pitchers go. He'd make a lot of sense for Chicago. Chicago gives up a lot of potential here, but it's also not a lot of high impact players, but it gives the Rangers a lot to work with.

Diamondbacks get: Benintendi
Red Sox get: Jon Duplantier, Stuart Fairchild, Josh Rojas

Explanation: Mike Hazen gets one of his guys back from Boston, and the Red Sox get a lot of pieces they can use almost immediately. Duplantier would be the cash cow here for Boston. Cheap, controllable SP to work with.

Agree17 Disagree13

24 Nov 2020 18:27:04
Trade # 1: An additional prospect would be needed from the SF Giants. someone like Blake Rivera who is an upside SP prospect with quite a bit of development in front of him. but, with a ceiling that says he could become something.

Trade # 2: Is a poor return for one of the best closers in MLB. Rios is a needed player and should remain as part of the deal. but, more is needed.

Trade # 3: Quantity over Quality. the CWSox would say YES to this deal almost without thinking. from the Ranger's perspective. Danny Mendick is just like six other utility guys they have. Adolfo showing he's back to being healthy is unknown. Dahlquist is so young, the Rangers won't know what they're getting. etc If the CWSox were to add someone like Jake Burger (who's blocked and will remain blocked by Yoan Moncada) . this could be a fairer deal.

Trade # 4: Benintendi needs to stay in Boston. The very poor results from 2020 *SSS, and reduced output in 2019. looks more like a salary dump than a "eureka" for the DBax. DBax should pass on this short term guy. nothing fixes this deal.

Thoughts? .

24 Nov 2020 18:50:16
1. The Giants could give up a lesser prospect. I think it's closer to fair, considering the Rays are getting a top 15 prospect, who is also an MLB-ready catcher for a guy with three years before free agency. But I could see the Giants adding in someone like Rivera.

2. I disagree. Hader is coming off a pretty bad season, regardless of how short is was. He had a high xFIP on an unsustainably low BABIP. That's a bad combo. Obviously if they are offered more, they should take it. But they'll be lucky to even get JUST Rios for him, let alone other pieces.

3. The Rangers would serve better to get quantity, especially a couple of guys who are MLB-ready and controllable. Lynn also only has a year remaining, so getting great value from a rental that isn't an elite pitcher is probably not going to happen.

4. Boston likes Benintendi. He's a good fit there. This was more of a trade to get a guy Mike Hazen has spoken very highly of. And it wouldn't cost them much. Duplantier isn't going to start in Arizona. He'd be a good pickup for Boston in exchange for a depressed value player. Arizona can give him the benefit of a hitters park.

Good thoughts all around.

25 Nov 2020 04:11:31
FWIW, Lynn has the 8th highest fWAR of any pitcher over the last 3 seasons. He is a very good 1 year rental option.

25 Nov 2020 13:52:48
I agree he's a very good rental option. I just don't know if the Rangers are going to get an elite prospect in return for him.

Getting a lot of high-upside pieces in a fairly weak farm system would be ideal for Texas.

25 Nov 2020 16:23:02
The Giants trading young talent for a guy that is signed for the next 3 seasons where the Giants won't be contending for at least 2/ 3rds of that deal doesn't seem like a wise path to me. I guess if butts in seats is the goal it's fine.

I also don't think Bart for Snell 1:1 is what they Rays would be looking for. Bart was unfairly rushed by the Giants and he needs more seasoning in the minors. I think the Rays would prefer a prospect that can better impact their 2021 team, something the Giants can't exactly offer.

If they neglect that last point, I think the Rays would insist on Luciano + Corry + 2 others.

25 Nov 2020 16:50:39
For what it's worth, I reached to multiple authors at Baseball Prospectus with my idea, using the handy Google Email application. Most didn't respond (as I expected) . One did respond. Here's what they told me:

"Interesting idea, Nate! As it stands now, no. It doesn't make sense. But if the Giants could land someone like Trevor Bauer, it makes every bit of sense. The Rays would want Bart for the future, the Giants build a very solid rotation. "

I'm not going twenty rounds with you on this. The Giants aren't trading Luciano, and if they do, it's certainly not going to be for Blake Snell. If Bobby Evans were around, they absolutely would have.

Luciano is that guy most teams have: an elite prospect whose potential is just too much to give away. Think of guys like Torres, Robert, Acuna, Soto, Franco. You don't give away prospects like that. Luciano is that prospect for the Giants. I don't see him being dealt in any scenario, for anything short of a Ronald Acuna, Mike Soroka, Ian Anderson package. (It's exaggerated, but you get the point. I think. )

29 Nov 2020 05:02:36
The the advice from you're buddy at BP! - "As it stands now, no. It doesn't make sense. "

Word of the wise.

29 Nov 2020 12:20:02
Your entire Snell trade was based around the notion that the White Sox have to also get Springer to make it make sense.

FWIW, Springer, like most elite free agents, isn't going to play for La Russa. So, I guess at the very least, you can go to the attic and dig up your old Adam Eaton White Sox jersey.

29 Nov 2020 20:29:51
"Your entire Snell trade was based around the notion that the White Sox have to also get Springer to make it make sense. "

Nope, not true. It just makes sense.

Also, money talks my friend.

30 Nov 2020 13:45:18
Yes, it's true. It's almost exactly what you said. Your own quote:

"I think 8 combined seasons of Snell + Springer would outperform 11 seasons of Vaughn + Kopech"

Do you need reminded that the White Sox don't currently have George Springer? So, yeah, in order for "8 seasons of Snell + Springer" to outperform 11 seasons of Vaughn + Kopech", you kind of need George Springer for that to be the case.

30 Nov 2020 13:48:41
And for what it's worth, I'll give you a bit of credit. Eno Sarris of The Athletic made the Vaughn + Kopech + Stiever trade idea for Snell. So you that was good.

However, if you're a fan of Andrew Vaughn, I absolutely wouldn't read the article, as Eno Sarris basically downplays the talent of Vaughn in no uncertain terms.

Some gemz:

"Vaughn currently has a below-replacement projection next to his name. "

"Vaughn has his supporters, but his subpar slugging numbers, and the fact that the White Sox didn’t share alternate site data from the 2020 season, means the Rays would be acting on faith if they trade for him"

And finally,

"To wit; every other centerpiece here is projected to be league average or better, "

Sarris doesn't believe that either Vaughn or Kopech will be league average. I'd more than certainly believe other experts feel the same way.

As will the Tampa Bay Rays. Ouch.

30 Nov 2020 16:25:41
First off all - my Snell proposal was in no way contingent on them signing Springer. My rationale was that since there were rumors of Sox interest in Springer and their expected (relatively) high-spending propensity this offseason, trading for Snell first and addressing their more pressing need (a SP) would make a Springer signing make a lot more sense. This is given the need aspect, but also the financials. Getting Snell for less than $11 million in 2021 gives you a better ability to spend $20+ million AAV on a RFer, a less pressing need.

Even without Springer, acquiring Snell and the surplus value he carries is obviously a plus.

Next, I really like Eno, but this seems like a weird argument. Vaughn would have a below league average projection on a system projecting off of his high-A numbers. He'd have to have like a 200 wRC+ in Winston-Salem for Depth Charts, Steamer, or whatever system you like, to project Vaughn as above average in 2021. It's not building in the context of the C. V. Also, the White Sox would share their alternate site data with the Rays in Blake Snell negotiations -- they just didn't at the 2020 deadline when all they were looking to acquire was the likes of Jarrod Dyson and Yolmer Sanchez -- there was just no need. It's evident why the projection systems *currently* don't like Vaughn, and this is not to downplay their functionality entirely, but no one in their right mind believes that Andrew Vaughn projects in the major leagues as below replacement level.

"as Eno Sarris basically downplays the talent of Vaughn" -- "Sarris doesn't believe that either Vaughn or Kopech will be league average. "

These are absolutely untrue statements. You're now not only twisting my words, but the words of Eno Sarris. No worries, I'll assist with some comprehension.

Sarris is not going against every reputable site and scout that has him in the top-20 prospects in baseball. He's saying there's uncertainty with Vaughn given that we are only looking at 250 PAs in A-ball from literally his draft year, which some evaluators consider a wash anyway.

Even with Vaughn's great projectablility as a top prospect, this uncertainty and the position he plays warrants the inclusion of Kopech, which is exactly the point I made initially -- but I was told this was a huge overpay by people including Nate.

"The Rays would be acting on faith if they trade for him"

To a certain extent, every team that ever trades for a prospect is acting on faith - faith in their scouts, data analysts, player development systems and projection models that each prospect will in fact turn out.

Again, Eno is one of my favorite writers in the industry, but I don't necessarily agree with his outlook on Vaughn and that's fine, or at lease how he's portraying his outlook. I think we share the opinion on relatively what it would take to acquire Snell, although Stiever as the third piece is a little rich for my taste. What you should notice is that there's no Joey Bart straight up for a top-20 pitcher in baseball that's owed $39 million over 3 years deal in here. Again, Eno understands the leverage that the Rays would have in these talks, and that's reflected in all 5 of his trades from that piece. This is one of many things I was trying to get you to understand, Nate.

30 Nov 2020 17:45:59
Right, why would they give up Jonathan Stiever when they get Brandon Nimmo for him, amirite?

As for him not including Joey Bart, I'd imagine if he pulled a Bleacher Report-style article and included a deal from every team, the Giants' offer would be something like Joey Bart, Alexander Canario, and Logan Webb.

Also, the funny thing about that White Sox trade, it matched literally ZERO of the criteria he put forth in his intro:

"Any centerpiece in a Snell trade will have to be a young major league player who can at least nearly match the pitcher’s production on the field but also be paid less — so let’s look for a major leaguer who is projected to put up at least three wins next year, and is still on a minimum deal, to be our Austin Meadows. Then the Rays would want a pitcher who is MLB-ready to play the role of Tyler Glasnow, and then some sort of significant prospect piece to mitigate the risk of trading away a more certain thing. "

Let's start with our "Meadows" aka Andrew Vaughn.

Vaughn is nowhere near MLB ready, not by any of the numbers. He played 29 games in High-A ball in 2019, and his production was fairly mediocre, especially in the context of being a "top 20 prospect". Meadows was hitting 111 wRC+ and a .335 wOBA in his MLB debut in Pittsburgh. Vaughn hasn't even made his MLB debut, and probably won't until closer to July/ August at the earliest.

Now, we move onto "Glasnow", aka Michael Kopech:

Kopech has logged 14 IP in the majors. And hasn't thrown a MLB, or MiLB pitch since September of 2018. Compare that to Glasnow, who had over 140 IP in the Majors (10x more than Kopech) by the time he was traded. Glasnow was 24 when traded, Kopech is the same age this offseason, with 10% of the track record of Glasnow.

And for the "Shane Baz" aka, Michael Stiever:

Stiever is a 40+ FV prospect (remember, YOU were the one who said 40 FV isn't even "good". So I assume 40+ isn't much better) . Shane Baz was the #76 prospect prior to that trade and is a 50 FV prospect now. Mind you, he was also that highly touted at 19, when he was traded. Stiever will be 24 in May (5 years older) and is worse.

So for all the work Sarris did to try and find a trade that matched the Archer trade, literally none of the standards applied to the White Sox trade.

And the other four would quickly, and easily, outbid the White Sox' offer.

30 Nov 2020 17:58:25
"To a certain extent, every team that ever trades for a prospect is acting on faith - faith in their scouts, data analysts, player development systems and projection models that each prospect will in fact turn out. "

Of course they are. But there's levels of trust. Look at the players mentioned outside the White Sox deal:

Hoskins, Howard, Morales, Verdugo, Casas, Houck, Gurriel, SWR, Kirk, Morejon, Patino, Campusano.

With the exception of three of those guys (Casas, SWR, Morales), we have seen some MLB time and can better identify what would be needed to fix or work on.

Stiever is the only one who wouldn't require "operating on faith", but we also understand he's objectively the worst name mentioned in the entire article. So while we "know" what he's capable of, the bar is also incredibly low, comparatively.

So while the Rays will have to act in faith on a few players, they likely don't want to do that for the entire package they receive. They'll want commodities that they know can, to an extent, play at the MLB level. I'm not sure we can say that, at all, about Vaughn or Kopech, or even Stiever, for that matter.

As a thought exercise: would you give up Lucas Giolito for three people who, combined have 20 IP in the majors over the PAST 3 seasons, and that's it? Of course you wouldn't.

30 Nov 2020 19:37:32
Sarris lined up his criteria for a trade and then included the Sox package as one of five, actually the 1st one outlined. Did he not? The Sox have the best package in that piece, easily. Don't overthink this to fit your own narrative.

Philly's package is nice, but does Philly do that? More a key cog out of their lineup that may also be losing Realmuto? Trade 2 more pitchers that will be in Philadelphia in 2021? unlikely IMO.

Are the Rays going to trade Snell in division? I'd doubt it. And I'd argue that SD's package, a team that already traded a lot to get a starter, is objectively worse. The White Sox make the most sense to over pay for Snell, in my opinion, given A. their current window, B. an already strong lineup and bullpen that can manage the loss of impact prospects, and C. Having those kind of high upside, MLB-ready (or very close to MLB-ready) prospects to move.

While the package doesn't align perfectly with the Archer package, Vaughn and Kopech are the best 2 prospects mentioned in the article, but still, the Sox pay up for the uncertainty with the only 2 top-20 prospects mentioned. We may be on reply 8 or so of me mentioning this.

But in terms of type of players, Vaughn:Meadows and Kopech:Glasnow is pretty darn similar.

"Vaughn is nowhere near MLB ready" lol, then neither is Joey Bart. Vaughn will play the majority of 2021 in MLB, as will Kopech, barring injury.

How do you "know what Steiver is capable of"? From the 2 MLB starts this year?

"As for him not including Joey Bart, I'd imagine if he pulled a Bleacher Report-style article and included a deal from every team, the Giants' offer would be something like Joey Bart, Alexander Canario, and Logan Webb. "

No, no no, not so fast. To compare with the other packages "on the table", it would be Bart + 1 of Luciano, Ramos or Bishop. Not Canario conveniently for the Giants. Try again.

I don't even know your stance anymore. First my Snell proposal was a significant over pay, then it was an underpay, now we have top writers throwing out almost the same trade. I'm not sure.

"As a thought exercise: would you give up Lucas Giolito for three people who, combined have 20 IP in the majors over the PAST 3 seasons, and that's it? Of course you wouldn't. "

Obviously not. But the White Sox don't have to make the same financial decisions as the Rays. The darn context is important Nate.

30 Nov 2020 20:54:55
"While the package doesn't align perfectly with the Archer package"

You don't say? It's objectively worse, in every possible way. And Snell is better than Archer, in every possible way. Would it not stand to reason that the Snell trade should demand MORE than the Archer trade?

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone gives that kind of an overpay for Snell like they did for Archer. That Archer trade legitimately got a GM fired.

And my stance hasn't changed. I still think your trade is a massive overpay. Frankly, I think Vaughn + a 40 FV prospect is more than enough for Blake Snell, who is coming off a season with a 1.6 adjusted fWAR. He wasn't even league-average in 2020, and was just okay in 2019. From 2019-20, Snell's 3.3 wins puts him behind Jon Gray and Chris Bassitt. It ranks him with Matthew Boyd and John Means.

If you take just his 2020 numbers, he tied with Alex Cobb, Mike Fiers, and Danny Duffy, to name a few. Some of that is his lack of innings in 2020, and the fact that the Rays pulled him before the 6th inning in every start. But let's not pretend that we're trading for Walker Buehler here.

There's a lot of uncertainty all around. The Rays are not going to get two top 20 prospects for Blake Snell. I'm not sure they get two top 50 prospects for him, not in this market and not considering the financial circumstances at play.

IF they get two top 50 guys, they'll be guys who are fringy candidates and are littered with serious question marks. Kopech probably fits that profile. Kopech has a significant of work to do to match the hype he came with. I strongly doubt he ever lives up to it. He's another Carson Fulmer type, honestly.

30 Nov 2020 21:02:13
And really, the confusing part was yours. My mind has never changed on Snell. I think it's an overpay. But I also think you managed to put together a trade that is 100% an overpay, and also with one player who is all hype and no substance.

YOU, on the other hand, acted like it wasn't an overpay. In fact, based on your own words, "I think 8 combined seasons of Snell + Springer would outperform 11 seasons of Vaughn + Kopech. "

So, really, it's an underpay.

But it's also a perfect trade. And it's also the most perfect trade anyone has ever made on this site. It's a trade that zero teams, based on your views, can match (news flash: EVERY team can match that trade) . And it perfectly fits the Rays every need, even though it matches literally zero of them.

See, Jeff, I've never stood on the principle that my trade is better than everyone's here. I've just stated that it is OBJECTIVELY better than YOURS.

The funny thing is: neither your team, nor mine are going to land Blake Snell. Like most players, Snell would retire from baseball before playing for Tony La Russa, and the Giants aren't trading Joey Bart.

So really, this is all moot. You're getting REALLY worked up about someone disagreeing with your made up trade.

Maybe you can make up a Jonathan Stiever for Brandon Nimmo trade and it'll make you feel all better.

30 Nov 2020 21:30:25
"And my stance hasn't changed. I still think your trade is a massive overpay. "


"So, really, it's an underpay. "



30 Nov 2020 21:55:32
Maybe 20-25 teams *could* match the trade, but how many *would*? Not very many at all. The Sox are one of very few teams where trading 2 top-50 prospects for Snell would make sense. Yeah, there's a 95% chance he's still in Tampa Bay in 2021, but Vaughn + Kopech, etc. is the kind of deal that gets the ball significantly rolling. The Rays are making him available in case someone like the White Sox would be willing to make a deal like the one I proposed.

"even though it matches literally zero of [the Rays' needs]"

Vaughn: controllable, high upside, top-20 prospect, potential cornerstone bat of a poor franchise

Kopech: Ace potential, another top-20 prospect, for a team that develops raw stuff as well as any team in the industry.

Quite the puzzling statement. Add it to the (increasingly extensive) list!

"Snell would retire from baseball before playing for Tony La Russa"

You can speak for Blake Snell? Oh, ok. Snell would likely gladly pitch for the White Sox deep into the postseason for a manager that will let him throw 3 or maybe even 4 times through the order if he's looking good. He's an elite starting pitcher in MLB. Over the last 3 seasons, he's 1 of 11 pitchers with a sub-.330 xFIP.

Who's that better than? Oh right, Walker Buehler.

Snell is virtually identical to Buehler in fWAR/ IP. So, yeah, if it weren't for age and contractual control disparities, we are, in fact, essentially talking about trading for Walker Buehler.

The Rays hold the all the cards. I get that. Eno Sarris gets that. You unfortunately do not.

01 Dec 2020 14:10:25
Name me 3 pitchers who missed two full years of development who turned into "aces". If you can even list ONE, I'll concede the point.

Kopech isn't "ace potential" anymore. He's probably closer to Reynaldo Lopez than he is Lucas Giolito. I'd wager he's closer to Carson Fulmer than Lopez even still.

He's no longer a "raw" pitcher. He's a pitcher that missed extremely vital and crucial time necessary for development. The Rays are great at developing pitching, but even they'll have their limitations.

A prime example of this is Brent Honeywell. Honeywell hasn't thrown an "affiliated" pitch since 2017. The time he missed is undoubtedly going to create risk for the Rays, who are seeking to win the AL East again. He's out of options, and there's no knowing how he'll actually pitch come Spring Training.

I have a pretty strong belief that the Rays don't want two guys just like Brent Honeywell.

And before you try and act like they aren't the same. I agree. Brent Honeywell doesn't come with the off-field issues like Kopech. So, in many ways, Kopech is a persona non grata for teams. He's missed too much time and until he proves that he's worth the hype he came with, no one is buying it.

The Rays don't need more guys with off-field issues. Their franchise has had more than their fair share of them. And they don't need another over-hyped 1B prospect. They've seen their fair share as well.

You can hear it from me first: Andrew Vaughn will not have one season above 3 wins in his career. Not a single one.

01 Dec 2020 20:36:59
So first, Vaughn was "very, very good" and adding Kopech made my initial Snell proposal a "major overpay".

Now, according to you, Vaughn "will not have one season above 3 wins in his career" and Kopech is now closer to Carson Fulmer or Reynaldo Lopez than a good pitcher?

Very tough to follow, but you move the goal posts so often it's so typical.

Vaughn still has .300/ .400/ .500 potential and Kopech sits 98-100 with an exploding high spin, high spin-efficient 4-seamer to go along with a 65-grade slider and feel for a change and curveball. The best FA pitcher on the market this offseason has shown that off-the-field issues are not a death sentence to your on-the-field performance. Kopech is a top-20 prospect everywhere for a reason. His development in Tampa would be potentially scary. Look what they did for Glasnow - a similar pitcher to Kopech but wasn't as highly regarded.

You're starting to pull narratives out of your rear end.

01 Dec 2020 21:01:53
He's a top 20 prospect everywhere because no one has enough data from 2020 to move anyone lol.

And Glasnow didn't miss two crucial years of development. He had 140 IP in the MAJORS and was on the 25-man roster when traded. The example of Glasnow couldn't be any further from reality.

And yeah, it's not a "death sentence", but when your pitcher is taking a year off for supposedly mental health reasons, that's going to raise serious red flags to anyone in baseball.

Except you, apprarently.

Although, you'd be trashing Kopech for those exact reasons every which way to Sunday if it weren't for the team next to his name.

01 Dec 2020 21:10:07
Also, I first thought it was an overpay. Then you explained to me how much of an underpay it truly was, and showed every reason why the Rays SHOULDN'T accept the deal.

So I began to look into Vaughn and Kopech a little closer. And the more I looked, the more I realized that the two—especially Kopech—aren't very good. It's okay to admit this. You won't get thrown out of Guaranteed Rate Field for admitting the truth. (They can't throw you out, otherwise they only have 14 people left in the stands. )

Kopech's mental health issues alone is going to raise serious red flags, and I'd imagine Boston's ownership is thrilled to let him be someone else's problem.

But if ever there was a fit for an over-rated, has-been prospect with known behavioral and mental health issues, the team that knowingly employed a 76-year-old man with active DUI charges against him seems like the PERFECT fit.

La Russa and Kopech were made for each other.

Anyhoo, enjoy Erik Katz as the pitching coach. Seems like Rick Hahn has to emulate Farhan Zaidi by hiring one of his coaches. Maybe he'll fix Kopech for y'all.

02 Dec 2020 02:07:55
It's Ethan Katz.

If that isn't symbolic of this whole ordeal, I don't know what is.

02 Dec 2020 08:03:41
"He's a top 20 prospect everywhere because no one has enough data from 2020 to move anyone lol. "

Or because in March he was sitting 101 along with the other stuff i described? Until he isn't doing that, he's a top prospect. No matter what his off-the-field issues are.

But really, you're seriously going to bag on the kid because he's battling depression? He's made for TLR? What does even mean? Shame on you. It's a low blow, even for someone with the less than desirable moral character you've showed on this forum. It's 2020 -- teams literally employ sport psychologists for things like this.

The amount of pro athletes that have likely battled the same demons is probably vast, but not a lot were brave enough to be vocal about it. He was also going through a divorce right before summer camp started. He's really not a problem - he's a genuinely good kid and an elite talent. One that the Red Sox struggled to part with, the White Sox are still thrilled to have, and the Rays would love to put their magic finishing touches on through his development.

Flip flopping and now saying that Vaughn and Kopech are not good players is such a trolling comment that there's not a whole lot left to say. If they aren't good prospects, then I'm afraid I have some bad news for the entire Giants farm system.

I think Neander would drool over this offer and take it quickly. The more I think about it, however, I just don't think it would be on the table -- as much as I think it should be. This magnitude of a return is likely what it's going to take to get Snell because he doesn't have to be traded at all and likely why he won't be.

02 Dec 2020 13:55:09
It's not bagging on a guy to state that he deals with mental health issues. It's an EXTREMELY relevant part of dealing with Kopech.

Look, Kopech needs to get the help he needs, clearly. And hopefully for his sake, 2020 was that chance. But his ability to hit 101 on the radar gun won't matter if he's unavailable to pitch because he's on the Restricted List or because his off-field problems lead to his unavailability in any capacity (i. e. 2020).

The Rays, or any team for that matter, aren't taking a guy who they don't even know if they can rely on to be on the field. It's one thing if the guy is battling injuries, it's another when it's emotional/ mental health issues, which point to a larger issue that is usually much more difficult to manage.

Have you ever hired anyone? Had to manage anyone dealing with mental health issues? Honestly. I have. I have them in my family. And they are as unreliable as it gets. That's not bagging on them, it's the truth.

If something as innocuous as getting a divorce is enough to force Kopech to take a break from baseball—while obviously it's better for him to take care of it—that's alarming to teams. And it's indicative of a player who, although very talented, will probably be limited by demons.

It's not knocking Kopech to mention this. And the TLR comment was pretty obviously to rag on the White Sox, who KNOWINGLY HIRED A GUY WITH DUI CHARGES to be their manager. It seems like they genuinely don't care about anything but trying to win (which is odd, because they also hired Tony La Russa) . People who hire guys like TLR have massive moral issues.

And, unfortunately, if the White Sox will overlook something as bad as a DUI, do you honestly think they are paying close enough attention to, or even care about, someone on their team who could be a serious problem down the road?

Doubt it.

Kopech's "value" is absolutely tied to his mental health issues. You can pretend it's not, you can act really offended by someone saying this, but it's 100% relevant and I guarantee the conversations among GMs in any trade discussion would be 10X harsher and less gracious than I'm being.

02 Dec 2020 20:14:33
FWIW, taking several months off of work because of you divorced your spouse is not normal behavior. I won't pretend to know the circumstances, and won't buy into speculations about it. But that's not normal behavior, and is certainly indicative of larger issues.

As someone who has dealt with mental health issues in the past, I'll be the first to say that businesses, especially sports teams where guys are paid 6-8 figure salaries, are taking on guys who are total enigmas. If Kopech will opt out because he got divorced, what's next? His dog died, so now, no more baseball?

If that seems exaggerative, it's really not. People who fight depression and anxiety to those extremes are prone to being flighty at work. I know, because I was once there.

The point is, why would the Rays, or any team, pay top-shelf price for a pitcher with known issues, and ones where his own coaches (who know him pretty well) publicly express deep levels of concern for him?

It's foolish to brush the mental health issues aside and treat them like they don't matter. They do. Because the truth is, it won't matter if he can throw 101 if he's not on the field for whatever reason. And over the past 24 months, he's been off the field a whole heck of a lot more than he's been on it. And that'll concern GMs.

You never answered my question, either. Name me just one player who missed two years of minor-league development who came back and pitched like an "ace" for his career? By development, I mean a guy between the ages of 18-25, not someone like Rich Hill.

Just one player. I'm not sure you can find me one. Kopech's value is totally tanked. And if he can log 50+ innings and not get hit all over the yard, you should be VERY HAPPY. I'm not betting that'll happen.

Frankly, I think you've seen the best of Michael Kopech in baseball. I'll take that bet every day.

02 Dec 2020 23:30:38
Every time I saw his name, I thought it was Erik Kratz. It's an easy mistake to make.

But I think it's actually more ironic than you're willing to admit (or, more realistically, than you're able to comprehend) .

Rick Hahn is taking a coach from the GM who is supposed to be emulating HIM, not the other way around. According to you, it should be the Giants who are hiring the White Sox coaches.

You don't find it a bit ironic that the World Champion White Sox are getting an assistant coach from the minor-league Giants?

I guess, considering the context of your recent comments about the Giants, and about Zaidi needing to emulate Hahn, I found it funny that Hahn hired a coach away from him, and, again, not the other way around.

FWIW, the ONLY reason Katz is going to Chicago is because he coached Giolito at Harvard-Westlake. Nepotism hires don't typically work out very well in baseball. But I expect the ever innovative Rick Hahn to make the most of the opportunity, just like he did from 2013-2017.

24 Nov 2020 00:06:14
White Sox/Rays

White Sox Get:
Blake Snell LHP

Rays Get:
Andrew Vaughn 1B
Michael Kopech RHP
Lenyn Sosa SS
Alec Hansen RHP

Agree10 Disagree18

24 Nov 2020 18:44:33
Take one of the first two guys out of the deal to make this work. Otherwise, this is a PERFECT deal from the Tampa perspective.

24 Nov 2020 22:07:12

A. This is a significant overpay for Blake Snell OR
B. You think very poorly of Vaughn and Kopech.

24 Nov 2020 22:53:14

Both Kopech and Vaughn have the pedigree and skills to become major leaguers. Kopech's path is clearly all about his health. but the early information says he's going to be just fine. Vaughn has a special bat that just does incredibly well at the ML level. Getting both. makes this an overpay.

24 Nov 2020 23:06:10
Given that Vaughn is a 1st baseman, Kopech hasn't thrown a pitch since August 2018 and we are talking about a top-20 pitcher on a 3-year/ $39 million contract, I don't think it's *that* much of an overpay.

I don't think Vaughn/ Kopech and Dunning/ Stiever gets the job done.

25 Nov 2020 02:48:02
It also gives them the flexibility to still get George Springer, something that Trevor Bauer wouldn't allow.

25 Nov 2020 12:24:15
Based on back-of-the-napkin math, Snell has a "surplus value" of anywhere from 45-55M.

You yourself claim that Vaughn's value is 55M on its own.

So, how poorly do you think of Kopech? Just curious.

25 Nov 2020 12:30:01
Frankly, Vaughn is very, very good, but I don't think Tampa Bay wants to give up Snell for a guy they don't need. They have a plethora of 1B options, including Nate Lowe, Yandy Diaz, and Ji-Man Choi (should they tender him a contract) .

They'll likely want a position of immediate need for him.

25 Nov 2020 15:37:15
At $9M/ WAR, I calculated Snell's projected surplus value in the $60-70 million range. Add in the fact that the move would allow the Sox to still get the top bat on the market, and he's worth even more.

I think 8 combined seasons of Snell + Springer would outperform 11 seasons of Vaughn + Kopech. The window was kicked open this year, and the next 3-4 years is likely the Sox's best shot to win. Getting a cheap ace only increases the likelihood of this happening. Kopech has dealt with injury and mental health issues. The sky's the limit for either guy, but Snell gives me a much better immediate chance to win in this designed window.

For the record, I really like Vaughn and Kopech. However, I don't think just because a rumor was floated out that the Rays are making Snell available means they are extremely motivated to trade him. They are going to want a haul. Maybe the second piece doesn't have to be Kopech -- maybe they like Dunning, Stiever, or even Dylan Cease enough with a higher quality 3rd piece.

I think any reasonable deal that doesn't involve *both* Vaughn and Kopech should almost be a no brainer for the White Sox.

But your note about the Rays having a plethora of 1B options kind of helps my initial point. While Vaughn would certainly be a better option than any combination of Diaz, Lowe, or Choi, we still are talking about first base.

25 Nov 2020 17:01:38
If the Rays aren't "extremely motivated" to move Snell, what would entice them more: a position of need (catcher) or one in which they have a big surplus (1B/ DH)?

As you said above, they want someone who can contribute immediately. I don't think that includes a 1B (who they don't need) who hasn't played above high-A ball, and a pitcher with "injury and mental health issues" (to use your own quote) .

25 Nov 2020 17:04:33
You should also work on your sales ability. You don't try to sell a product (in this case, a trade idea) and then downplay the side you're giving up.

"I think 8 combined seasons of Snell + Springer would outperform 11 seasons of Vaughn + Kopech. "

So, why wouldn't the Rays just find someone who can contribute at or above Springer's level (say Arozarena? ) and keep Snell? Why give up the better player for a package that'll get out-performed?

It's remarkable, you got me from believing this was a significant overpay to believing it's a significant underpay, all because you kept trying to sell it. You literally talked your way out of making me believe this deal.

It truly is incredible.

25 Nov 2020 19:39:28
My goal here isn't to sell you on a trade, believe it or not Nate. As much as you pretend to be, you are not this site's arbiter.

This idea was spawned from the rumors of Snell's availability. I'm allowed to speculate as to how much merit I would like to give it. My guess is that they are flaring his name out there in case an team wants to "blow them away", and that's what my proposed trade would likely do.

"So, why wouldn't the Rays just find someone who can contribute at or above Springer's level (say Arozarena? ) and keep Snell? Why give up the better player for a package that'll get out-performed? "

No kidding! Why are the Rays looking to trade Snell?

It's obviously puzzling why the current AL champion would be looking to trade their ace, but this is how the Rays operate. The run their team like a company on Wall St. (there's a whole book on this btw), so they are alway looking to sell high on ANY of their assets. Given the money lost in 2020, the $39 million owed to Snell by the Rays probably means a lot more to the Rays than it would literally any other team. For the Rays however, even with prospect uncertainty, I'm pretty confident that 11 seasons of Vaughn and Kopech will outperform 3 years of Snell.

They very well may be "extremely motivated", but they won't show their hand. They know that Snell, given his skill and contract status, could fit on virtually any team. My point in pointing out the "flaws" of Vaughn and Kopech were to provide context as to how they're no sure thing for the White Sox here in their contention window. This trade is an overpay, but if I had to guess, that's what it will require to get a bonafide ace on a crazy cheap deal.

If the Giants' offer for Snell is one top-20 prospect that struggled mightily (albeit in a small sample) that probably needs to start the season in AAA, they will definitely be outbid, and it will be rather quickly.

26 Nov 2020 14:03:00
0 believable, 10 unbelievable (and growing) . You didn't sell ANYONE on this trade.

And I'm giving you a hard time. It's not a bad trade. Vaughn and Kopech are good players. They have tons of trade value. But neither serves a need for the Rays.

At the very least, Joey Bart fills an immediate need for the Rays, who currently have one catcher on their 40-man roster, and even that guy hasn't had a single at-bat above High-A ball. It's no doubt they need catchers. Taking on a cheap, top 15 prospect, who also plays catcher and has some major league experience would be pretty attractive to a budget-conscious team like Tampa Bay.

If they are worried about him being able to immediately fill in, they could sign a guy like Jason Castro for a couple million and then let Castro (or literally anyone) be a backup after Bart gets a handful of games at AAA.

Could a bunch of teams outbid the Giants? Of course. But it seems like Tampa Bay wants the RIGHT deal, not just the deal with the best players.

26 Nov 2020 14:11:44
You missed the point of my "sales pitch" criticism (surprise, surprise) .

For starters, you are, in fact, trying to "sell" me (and everyone on this site) on your ideas. If you weren't, you wouldn't pay my criticisms any attention or get worked up over them. Yet, here you are.

You can use the word "defend" if you'd prefer. It all adds up the same. Your defense of your trade didn't make sense to me.

On one hand, the Rays are going to demand the world for Blake Snell (it's my opinion that Snell isn't going to net as much as you think, but that's just my opinion), but on the other hand, the Rays will accept a deal for guys that are "no sure thing for the White Sox here in their contention window"?

But they make sense for the Rays, who are an objectively better baseball team in every possible way?

Remove the team names and ask yourself which package would convince the Rays to accept:

Package A: A first baseman (who they don't need) who hasn't had a single PA above High-A ball and a pitcher with "injury and mental health issues. " (Mind you, the Rays have a bad history of players in their organization with major mental health issues) .


Package B: A catcher (of which their team has a significant and glaring need for) that ranks in the top 15 prospects, has 6 years of team control, and has MLB experience.

The player in package B isn't a perfect baseball player. Neither are any in package A. But if the Rays are going to demand to be motivated to move Snell, I'd imagine acquiring players they NEED will probably be more likely to motivate them.

For what it's worth, I don't think Zaidi offers Bart for Snell, not even straight up. So it wouldn't be much to top an offer that Zaidi wouldn't offer. I suggested mine because it was something that works in theory.

26 Nov 2020 17:15:12
" but on the other hand, the Rays will accept a deal for guys that are "no sure thing for the White Sox here in their contention window"?

But they make sense for the Rays, who are an objectively better baseball team in every possible way? "

Yes. This is where understanding team context really matters. The only reason why Snell is even being discussed is Tampa Bay's budget constraints that are accentuated due to the C.V.. That's why they typically look to sell high, etc. -- if you read my last reply.

And Vaughn and Kopech are no more of a "no sure thing" than any other prospects. I made that point only because prospects are never a sure thing. Teams like Tampa have to be confident they can develop "no sure things" into playoff-contributing players all the time.

Vaughn is, as I already said, a better option than any of their in-house candidates at first base and the Rays could likely do wonders for Michael Kopech. Kopech is the typical high-velo, high induced vertical break pitcher that they thrive with. ie. Tyler Glasnow, Fairbanks, Snell, McClanahan, etc. Neander and Co. would drool over this package if it was on the table, despite the flaws that make these 2 not "perfect prospects".

They Rays would take Vaughn and Kopech in a heart beat over Bart. Like it's not even close. Don't tell me you are going to make that argument. Yes, they want "the right players" given that they still want to contend in 2021, but they would get 10x more value from Vaughn and Kopech this year (and likely through the next 6 years for that matter) rather than Bart. 99 times/ 100 the "right players" are also the better players. Bart wouldn't solve their immediate catching needs because he belongs in AAA for at least a couple months. His pitch selection issues were terrible in his 1st 100 or so PA sample. He has the potential to be a really good MLB catcher, he just isn't what the Rays would be seeking right now.

As as I also said, the trade doesn't make sense anyway for the Giants given where they are in their rebuild.

27 Nov 2020 08:53:39
There is a bunch of rumblings that Zaidi prefers the catcher he drafted (Bailey) over Bart as it were. He's also stated, repeatedly, in every possible way, that the Giants plan on trying to compete in 2021 and that they will seek top level pitchers.

So unless it's just lip service, a trade for Snell would fall in line with what Zaidi plans to do. And it's been something that many people I've ran it by: baseball nerds, beat writers, TB fans, and others have all pretty much agreed that it's fair and makes a lot of sense for both teams.

You don't have to like the trade, because guess what: YOU'RE NOT THIS SITE'S ARBITER, EITHER. The irony of your own comment got totally lost on you.

But to pretend like it's a terrible trade that doesn't make any sense? I'd say at this point, you disagree with the trade simply because it made by Natedog (me) . Just admit it and let's move on, shall we?

27 Nov 2020 19:04:46
We can move on, it's fine. I think Zaidi stating the have wants to compete in 21 is what's lip service to the fan base. There's really no scenario where they're better than LA or San Diego, and if you want to argue for a second wild card spot, I'd argue for 5 or so NL teams better set up for short term success.

I'm not going to criticize Zaidi for saying that (it's just GM talk), but we both know that's awfully ambitious.

I don't think it's a terrible trade (especially on your scale), but I simply don't think it makes sense for either side - and that's obviously just my opinion. If the Rays are in fact EXTREMELY motivated to move Snell for financial reasons and a trade for Joey Bart straight up is the best offer TB gets, then fine -- but I think the chances of both of those facts being true is slim to none. If we look at Vaughn, Kopech, and Bart -- Bart is the 3rd best in that group. Add in the fact that Bart almost surely needs to start 2021 in AAA (Kopech probably does too FWIW), and all I'm saying is that Hahn picks the phone up and gives TB a better deal very quickly. All that would take is Vaughn + 2 or 3 40 FV prospects.

The last thing I'll say about Zaidi and Bart is that even if he likes Bailey more as his long-term backstop, he should probably at least give Bart a shot to improve his value in 2021 if he plays half a season in San Fran.

28 Nov 2020 10:34:46
Of course it's ambitious. But the Giants were in a tie-breaker for a playoff spot in 2020. Yes, those were expanded playoffs, but nonetheless, they had a much better year than predicted.

I don't *think* Zaidi makes the Bart-for-Snell trade. I think Tampa Bay would accept it in nothing flat. Bart was the #2 pick for a reason, and Tampa can certainly do wonders if they can help work on his swing, which is something they are very good at.

The Rays catching situation has went from comical to disastrous. And I'd imagine Neander and Silverman would jump at the ability to get a legit catcher in there for the next 5-6 years.

"All that would take is Vaughn + 2 or 3 40 FV prospects. "

Okay, so this changes the conversation really quick, since you removed Kopech and all. If you're Erik Neander, and you get the following offers, which do you take?

Vaughn (#13 MLB prospect, still in High-A to AA) + 2-3 40 FV prospects


Bart (#11 MLB prospect, MLB ready) + 2-3 40 FV prospects?

Not knowing how the Rays view each prospect exactly, Bart is higher ranked, closer to the majors, and fills a position of need.

If you think the Rays would take the first package, then I just don't think you're being objective about this.

Whether it makes sense for SF is a moot point. The Rays have ZERO catchers on their 40-man roster with an AB in the majors. They'll take the package with a catcher first. In fact, I'd wager if that catcher were only ranked #65, and the rest were 40 FV prospects, the Rays would take it before taking Vaughn.

Trade packages with guys like Jeffers (MIN), Kirk or Jansen (TOR), Smith or Ruiz (LAD), Alvarez (NYM), Campusano (SD) would be preferable over a position like 1B/ DH, where they can find production for pennies on the dollar.

01 Dec 2020 21:25:20
Well, now, see you didn't have 2-3 40 FV prospects in your Bart for Snell deal, so that's not what I was comparing. You had Bart for Snell straight up, which would never happen. You changed the conversation.

Again, Blake Snell is at worst a top-20 pitcher in baseball on a 3-year, $39 million contract. A catcher that just stuck out almost 40% of the time alone is not enough.

As the Rays are serious contenders, they likely wouldn't want to put Bart, who is clearly still learning the ropes of hitting in MLB but also all the things that have to do with catching, behind the dish on opening day. World Series contenders usually don't prefer rookies behind the plate -- especially to execute the pitching system that the Rays deploy.

Zaidi, Kapler, and the Giants org did Joey Bart a huge disservice by bringing him up too early, and they'll have to hope that doesn't' screw with his development process. The guy had less than 100 PAs above high-A. Not good.

Bart is not any more MLB ready than Vaughn is - but I can confidently say that Vaughn would have easily bested Bart's whopping 70 wRC+ in 2020. He hit like you'd expect a catcher belonging in A-ball would hit in MLB. Do they Rays want a guy who's swing has to be "worked on", or a guy whose swing is fine for their cheap ace? Makes you think.

"Silverman would jump at the ability to get a legit catcher in there for the next 5-6 years. "

Sure, but I'm sure they'd like a legit potential .300/ .400/ .500 hitter too. Packages headlined by Bart and Vaughn wouldn't be that far off, but Vaughn would be able to help TB a lot more in 2021 than Bart would. With the money saved from Snell, they could easily go get Jason Castro and Tyler Flowers with that $10 million -- veteran catcher that contending teams usually prefer. Could TB prefer Bart to Vaughn for the reasons you outlined? Yeah they could, but Zaidi better be ready to cough up some other good prospects while he's still in the thick of a rebuild, which let's be honest, he shouldn't and won't do.

"Trade packages with guys like Jeffers (MIN), Kirk or Jansen (TOR), Smith or Ruiz (LAD), Alvarez (NYM), Campusano (SD) would be preferable over a position like 1B/ DH, where they can find production for pennies on the dollar. "

Another patented Statbook comment that is just beyond wild. I live for these because I can see you typing this so confidently, but I guess you forget to think about it? A The Rays take a package headlined by Alejandro Kirk over Andrew Vaughn? LOL! I have to remember that, by you're own admissions, you're merely a troll.

They Rays also have Ronaldo Hernandez on their 40-man, one of the best catch and throw catchers in the minors, so you're wrong there as well. The Rays will want to add 2 MLB-ready catchers to their tight 40-man, not Bart who likely is sent to Durham, or maybe even Montgomery.

But your comment about 1B/ DH not being a prime position is exactly why I included Kopech here, and again, if I'm Hahn, I still do this because it allows me to still sign Springer and win the offseason. The Sox's biggest window is the next 3-5 years - Snell fits it almost perfectly.

IMO you're underrating Blake Snell here, especially with the leverage the Rays would have in these discussions. Any team that gets him would only have to pay him $10.5 million in 2021. The Braves just gave Drew Smyly (who I like) $11 million! In this market, he's extremely valuable.

02 Dec 2020 08:37:49
Honest question, Chi Sox, why does all of this bother you so much?

I'm just curious as to why you display such a level of vitriol for anyone who deviates from your opinion of them. Is there some sort of deep, personal connection to them that you get EXTREMELY OFFENDED when someone suggests that maybe they aren't as great as you think they are?

We've had lengthy conversations about silly topics, mostly involving the White Sox, and for the most part, I enjoy them. I really do. For as much as I enjoy getting you riled up, I also enjoy hearing your perspectives and learning a thing or two. If I didn't enjoy this, I wouldn't partake in it.

But there seems to be some elements here that show you're not able to be an adult about this. Again, it's not a character flaw if someone doesn't share the same 99th Percentile scouting report on Andrew Vaughn as you do.

You take it deeply personal. To the extent that you've made MULTIPLE posts calling me out, personally, because I dared disagree with you. They weren't even posts where you gloated, but instead, they were simply over differences of opinion.

If you find that one's character is in question because they disagree with your opinion, it may be time to re-evaluate your priorities and take some time off.

20 Nov 2020 21:30:00
NY Mets

Sign P



2b McNeil
CF Springer
RF Conforto
DH Alonso
1b D. Smith
3b JD Davis
LF Nimmo
SS Rosario / Gimenez
C McCann

Gimenez, Guillorme
M. Smith

Peterson / Thor

CL Hendriks
SU - Diaz

Agree0 Disagree5

13 Nov 2020 13:11:42
Reported teams interested in Francisco Lindor. NY Mets, NY Yankees, Philadelphia Phillies, St Louis Cardinals and Atlanta Braves. Any guesses as to what would have to be offered in return? Also, had an article that Carlos Carrasco may be added with Lindor.

Agree7 Disagree0

14 Nov 2020 01:57:20
Probably think of controllable OF options on all of those teams.

St. Louis- Tyler O'Neill or Harrison Bader
NY Yankees- Clint Frazier
NY Mets- Brandon Nimmo

Atlanta's OF options are all way more valuable than a year of Lindor, and unless the Indians think they can fix Scott Kingery, I'm not sure they have much to offer.

14 Nov 2020 01:59:21
Adding Carrasco would change the game for them quite a bit. Carrasco is only owed 13.5M/ year over the next two (including the buyout) . And he's a very, very good pitcher.

So the acquiring team could get Lindor (and potentially extend him) as well as get two years of a great pitcher on an insane deal?

I'd guess the Indians can also get a couple of elite prospects if they attach Carrasco AND save 47M.

14 Nov 2020 14:20:53
I agree they have ignored or not addressed the OF in at least three years and their lack of offense in the 6-9 positions in the line-ups have been lacking to say the least. Personally don't want to see Carrasco go as he's not only an exceptional pitcher but a great human being that does his job, gives MUCH back to the community without publicity, and certainly is a role model for the younger pitchers and position players. Realizing it's a business too. but I'd hate to see them trade him. Lindor on the other hand should have been dealt before this year. he wants his payday and has earned the opportunity in free agency therefore the FO HAS got to get this move right because as I've said many times---to squander this opportunity with this pitching staff would be a baseball sin, missed opportunity, and insulting to a log suffering LOYAL fanbase.

14 Nov 2020 18:01:48
I didn't know that about Carrasco. That's really cool stuff.

Personally, if I were an Indians fan, or a Cleveland-area native, I'd hate to see him go as well. And perhaps the Indians FO and ownership understand this and realize that his impact on their community is greater than a couple of prospects.

12 Nov 2020 19:30:10
NY Mets Moves:

Trade with Cubs
Cubs get
JD Davis
A. Rosario
D. Peterson
M Vientos or B. Baty

Mets get
Bryant (fee agent after this year)
Yu Darvish
C Kimbrel (take on his full salary - 2021 16 mil + 1 mil 2020 buyout)

Cubs can use salary relief to resign Baez, Rizzo and Schwarber

Mets extend Bryant and have Darvish for this year and 2 more years

Agree1 Disagree9

11 Nov 2020 07:24:13
I know I knocked again for this . To many player again. But just because something likes hasn't happen before doesn't mean some think like this couldn't happen if not smaller scale . Three team trade Indians , Pirates , Braves

First Indians would get
RF Gregory Polanco -$11,000,000
1b Josh Bell. -$6,000,000
Sp Joe Musgrove -3,750,000
Lf Adam Duvall. - $7,100,000
Rp Luke Jackson. - #2,100,000
SS /Ut Johan Camargo -$2,300,000
Prospect from braves
C #14 C Alex Jackson
Cf # 9 Micheal Harris

Pirates get
Of Ender Inciate
RP Huscar Ynoa
DH Josh Naylor
1b Bobby Bradley Indians -#13 prospect
C Bo Naylor #15 prospect
RF Bradley Zimmerman
Braves prospects
#16 Sp Patrick Weigel
#8 Sp Tucker Davidson
#20 Sp Freddy Tarnok
#23 Of Greyson Jenista

Braves get
Ss Francisco Lindor
Sp Shane Bieber
RP Carson Fulmer
Indians #30 Of Will Benson
Ok my logic behind this

Indians have trade Lindor and braves are one of teams attach with rumor is braves

So Cleveland need mixture of major league talent and prospects and braves will not be able give all they need , enter the Pirates a team look to rebuild but still have vet Talent they should trade now get some great young prospects they want . And braves need another bill bat in there lineup that help put them over top With braves Ace out tell at less July they need another one top there rotation. And well I know I get knock for this Bieber top of rotation for braves would to do that .

Well this even begin to happen they going want have one back and Musgrove would be closer to that then what braves would want give back plus in camargo need fresh stop , we all saw what man can do if you give him chance start and he SS plus they get in Jackson a guy could close for them if want plus couple prsocts including of Harris who is 5 tole type player and Jackson give them C that given chance mite end up being there stating catcher next year

The Pirates get the prospects they need plus they give Inciate and Zimmerman a chance back . Give Naylor start at DH every day, plus in Huascar they get guy we all saw how pitched against the Dodgers

For braves they could move Swanson to 3b or even Movie him to LF , they get that super star bat lineup To go with scuba, Albies , Freeman , plus get one Swanson best friends back with him, and maybe braves could turn his career around maybe he become Braves Future Closer and in Benson he is another Ga boy to be able come home

Agree0 Disagree14

11 Nov 2020 13:43:23
Just your average three team, 25 players, deal that happens all the time. Any team that is interested in Lindor already knows that the Indians are ready to deal so only a few teams probably have a real interest in a possible one year rental. This is going to be a hard free agency period following this past season and reports are that 2/ 3 of the teams are not going to spend money---if true there may be a lot of one year, salary incentive packed deals.

14 Nov 2020 14:22:44
No matter how. a 25 player trade is unrealistic!


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